OT: Could just be a chemistry experiment gone horribly wrong...

Pikapppatri8

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Phoenix you overstate the "violent passages" in other texts and understate those that are far more clear and direct in the Quran. Let us also compare how these faiths developed and spread=. There were no pennies apostles - like Paul and Peter - walking across the known world preaching the Gospel only to humbly submit to execution - like Christ.

Mohammed - spread Islam entirely through war and conquest and subjugati0n. Islam was born in conflict and warfare. Compare that to Buddhism and Judaism (these people just want to be left alone).

Islam is uniquely problematic.
 

phoenix-arizona

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Until around the later Roman Empire. Then pagans and Christian hertics became persecuted.

Buddhists, despite their religious texts, can be violent towards Muslims and Christians.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32929855

http://www.dw.com/en/buddhist-monks-incite-hatred-against-muslims-in-myanmar/a-18330839

http://www.anglicannews.org/news/20...ray-after-attacks-by-buddhist-extremists.aspx

"a thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail''

Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre
Israeli Settler Violence.

And I am not saying that religion is violent. It is violent but also not violent. It is peaceful but also not peaceful.

So I don't know that Islam is uniquely problematic.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims in the world.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ulation-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/

Compare that to

'
A good example of this is the shifting estimates of ISIS's strength. ISIS, which split off from al Qaeda earlier this year, "can muster between 20,000 and 31,500 fighters across Iraq and Syria," a CIA spokesman told CNN last week.

This is as much as three times previous estimate of ISIS's strength; U.S. officials initially estimated ISIS had around 10,000 fighters.

To see if we could come up with some kind of estimate for the total number of militants fighting with jihadist groups around the world, we asked a range of experts to estimate the number of fighters belonging to various al Qaeda-affiliated or like-minded groups. These estimates appear in a report, which we helped to author, that was released this week by the Bipartisan Policy Center's Homeland Security Project, a successor to the 9/11 Commission.

If we tally up the low and high estimates for all these groups, we can begin to have a sense of the total number of jihadist militants that are part of formal organizations around the globe. We found that on the low end, an estimated 85,000 men are fighting in jihadist groups around the world; on the high end, 106,000.'

So it would seem like the great majority of Muslims just want to live their lives, and regardless of what the texts say, aren't interested in destroying the world. Or taking it over.
 

Pikapppatri8

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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/03/27/blast-near-pakistan-park-kills-10.html?intcmp=hpbt1

"
A Taliban faction, Jamaat-ul-Ahrar, claimed responsibility for the attack and said Christians were the target of the blast, Reuters reported.

About 300 people were injured when the bomb detonated in the parking area of Gulshan-e-Iqbal Park in the eastern city of Lahore.

A suicide bomber is suspected of being responsible for the blast, though authorities continue to investigate. Ball bearings, which may have been shrapnel from the bomb, were found at the scene, according to AFP."
 

Pikapppatri8

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"If we tally up the low and high estimates for all these groups, we can begin to have a sense of the total number of jihadist militants that are part of formal organizations around the globe. We found that on the low end, an estimated 85,000 men are fighting in jihadist groups around the world; on the high end, 106,000.'

So it would seem like the great majority of Muslims just want to live their lives, and regardless of what the texts say, aren't interested in destroying the world. Or taking it over."


Once again you miss the point by posting information I agreed to is fact. However the second part of that fact is that Islam is uniquely problematic because it is the single largest source of religious based violence in the world and has been since its creation. Now with modern technology, IEDs, etc etc they are pushing the fight.

No one is scared when they see a bunch of nuns get on the metro.
No one gets edgy when they see a Buddhist monk or a Rabbi.

A bunch of young ME/Islamic men get on the metro - People get nervous. Why....

You try really hard to find obscure bible/torah passages and strain to find equivalence between Islam and the Judeo/Christian ethics or Buddhism/eastern religions. However, the real proof is in the looking at the fruits of Islam and the West. No one is migrating to Islamically strict countries. The Islamic world is bleeding at its edges and internally. AND THAT FACT ALONE _ proves my point - Islam as a culture does not play well with others and is incompatible - based on its teachings and precepts with the West except when you have people who don't really follow the faith too strongly.
 

Pikapppatri8

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http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/17/world/christian-persecution-2015/

"
(CNN)Last year was the most violent for Christians in modern history, rising to "a level akin to ethnic cleansing," according to a new report by Open Doors USA, a watchdog group that advocates for Christians.

In total, the survey found that more than 7,100 Christians were killed in 2015 for "faith-related reasons," up 3,000 from the previous year, according to the group's analysis of media reports and other public information as well as external experts. Open Door's report is independently audited by the International Institute of Religious Freedom."


"According to the report, however, much of the persecution faced by Christians occurs in predominantly Muslim nations, many of which are "failed states" that fail to protect any of their citizens' religious liberty.
The presence of Islamic extremist factions across the world in 2015 brought religious persecution for not only Christians, but also Muslims, Yazidis and other religious minorities, the report found. Notably, Iraq (No. 2) and Syria (No. 5) are the epicenter of ISIS' so called "caliphate," while Afghanistan (4), Pakistan (6), Iran (9) and Libya (10) all have elements of Islamic extremism.
"
 

Pikapppatri8

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Read your post more carefully - you are making my point:

"Buddhists, despite their religious texts, can be violent towards Muslims and Christians."

Yes Buddhists, Jews, and Christian, and even Hindus can be violent in ways the contradict the core precepts of their faith. But it contradicts their faith - and hence that is why the rate of violence for these religions is much less than for say - Islam.
 

phoenix-arizona

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Read your post more carefully - you are making my point:

"Buddhists, despite their religious texts, can be violent towards Muslims and Christians."

Yes Buddhists, Jews, and Christian, and even Hindus can be violent in ways the contradict the core precepts of their faith. But it contradicts their faith - and hence that is why the rate of violence for these religions is much less than for say - Islam.

That is my problem with your argument. You create a box that is only special to Islam . It is only Islam that preaches violence. Violence in other faiths is just misinterpreted . Islam is a cult of death. It is a fascist political ideology. Violence in other faiths, that's not a true representation. But peaceful Muslims, they're not being true.

"is scared when they see a bunch of nuns get on the metro.
No one gets edgy when they see a Buddhist monk or a Rabbi.

A bunch of young ME/Islamic men get on the metro - People get nervous. Why...."

The media ?

Again, I am not a Muslim trying to convince you or myself of anything. I do worry that making certain arguments about Islam will lead to disastrous foreign and domestic policies that will lead to loss of rights, racial profiling, community violence, ect.
 
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Pikapppatri8

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Just to give PiKapp a chance to leave his soapbox for a pee break, here is a serious problem that needs addressed.

Ok on Tom , I get it. I wasn't preaching but having an intellectual discussion.

Happy Easter ! It is time for us all to kiss a pagan and pass along an Easter egg.
 

gmutom

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Happy Easter ! It is time for us all to kiss a pagan and pass along an Easter egg.

Haha, Happy Easter to you too, my friend. I was just bustin' your balls while also giving you a boob break. Carry on!
 

GMUgemini

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PiKapp, you have to separate Islam the religion and Islam the political system. They are distinct. It's like Judaism and Zionism (there are hard line Zionists, for instance, in Israel that are just as ruthless as the Islamists, only they are held largely in check by the secular government there. If Israel ever became a failed state, all hell would break lose there -- and before you say, no, there aren't, take a look at some of the recent price tag attacks in the Palestinian territories).

There's an ongoing fight in post-colonial Middle East between those who want a secular government and those who want an Islamic government. This has been exacerbated by the successful 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, which forced Saudia Arabia -- in their mind -- to begin exporting their own version of an Islamic State to the rest of the Muslim world. There's also a bit of ethnic and cultural supremacy going on here between the Arabs and Persians (reminds me a lot of the white supremacist ideology that rears its ugly head from time to time -- Neo-Nazi rally in Brussels over the weekend overtaking a memorial for the bombing victims).

You couple that with the rulers of many of these so-called secular states (Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Hosni Mubarak in Egypt, Moammar Gadhafi in Libya, the Assads in Syria and so on and so forth) and you've got populations in much of the Muslim world who are sick and fed up with these so-called secular governments.

You look at Turkey, where you've got a military that is staunchly pro-secular against their current president who is a self-stylized "moderate" Islamist in Erdogan (because, you know, a little Islamism isn't that bad). You've got hardliners in Indonesia pushing on the secular Indonesian government to become more Islamist. You've got Islamist factions in Tunisia trying to push back against the secular government there, the same in Jordan, and Algeria. Islamists briefly took over Egypt, and now you've got a huge fight in Sinai. Libya is split between the secular government in the west and the islamist government in the eats. The Taliban is making it very hard for Pakistan to liberalize their democracy (but it seems like the population there is starting to fight back. We will see how that goes in the next generation or so).

The Kurds belong in their own special place, because they are mostly Muslim, but are largely socialist in nature (the Kurdish HDP in Turkey, for instance, successfully ran on a platform to block Erdogan's constitutional reforms and are calling for more liberalization in the country, not less), but they have no country of their own.

In other words, these terrorists are forcing an identity crisis on the parts of the people. The hard line Islamists who are in power in much of the Middle East will fight like hell to stay in power, or to remain influential in regional politics, but I think there is a legitimate beginnings for a reformation movement. This is going to take some time. It's going to be messy and bloody and horrible, and the Middle East is not going to look the same as it did when it started.
 

Old Man

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So obviously the Koran writers and the Koran have contradictions and contradict themselves.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

Which is what you'd expect from a text written by fallable humans.

And that is what I am trying to say about religions and religious texts. They promote violence, they promote peace. They promote hate and they promote love.

It is about how the worshipper reads and interprets those texts.
Phoenix,

What you say here isn't exactly correct. Yes, the Qur'an does contradict itself, but proper Islamic hermeneutic says the later written passages take precedence over the earlier ones, therefore no contradiction.

It just so happens the peace loving suras, chapters in the Qur'an, were written earlier and no one was convinced of Islam. The later written suras are the more war-like and are the ones that tell Muslims to make war on the non-believers. And that's when Muhammad began to make war on all who did not submit to Islam.

And that's where we are today.

One more thing, for Islam, and really any religion, yes including Christianity and others, it's not really left up to the adherents to interrupt their revered texts any way they feel. There are proper methods and contexts to interpret ones religion, i.e. a hermeneutic. The question for each adherent is, are they willing to do the hard work involved in their religion's hermeneutic and live according to what they find? Or will adherents do as most people do with religion and live however they want and justify it by picking and choosing a passage here and there that appears to support whatever they want to do and ignore they ones that tell them differently?

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GMUgemini

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Phoenix,

What you say here isn't exactly correct. Yes, the Qur'an does contradict itself, but proper Islamic hermeneutic says the later written passages take precedence over the earlier ones, therefore no contradiction.

It just so happens the peace loving suras, chapters in the Qur'an, were written earlier and no one was convinced of Islam. The later written suras are the more war-like and are the ones that tell Muslims to make war on the non-believers. And that's when Muhammad began to make war on all who did not submit to Islam.

And that's where we are today.

One more thing, for Islam, and really any religion, yes including Christianity and others, it's not really left up to the adherents to interrupt their revered texts any way they feel. There are proper methods and contexts to interpret ones religion, i.e. a hermeneutic. The question for each adherent is, are they willing to do the hard work involved in their religion's hermeneutic and live according to what they find? Or will adherents do as most people do with religion and live however they want and justify it by picking and choosing a passage here and there that appears to support whatever they want to do and ignore they ones that tell them differently?

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This holds true only for Sunni Muslims. Shia Muslims believe in a living text and thus can and do reinterpret them to fit into more modern worldviews. It is worth noting that Sunnis make up about 80 percent of the Muslim population.
 

Old Man

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This holds true only for Sunni Muslims. Shia Muslims believe in a living text and thus can and do reinterpret them to fit into more modern worldviews. It is worth noting that Sunnis make up about 80 percent of the Muslim population.
Well, we all know that Sunni Islam is the only true Islam. :cool: Shias are like the Gnostics of Islam; they believe they have superior knowledge. If you don't believe that Shias believe themselves superior, just ask a Persian, i.e. Iranian, and they will tell you they are better than anyone.

Ok, so the last bit is a bit of sarcasm, but none of what Gemini said makes me feel more comfortable with the Islamic religion as an instrument of peace. In fact, what he said was 80% of Islam should be at war with non-Islam.

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Pikapppatri8

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GMU Gemini Quote - "PiKapp, you have to separate Islam the religion and Islam the political system. They are distinct. It's like Judaism and Zionism (there are hard line Zionists, for instance, in Israel that are just as ruthless as the Islamists, only they are held largely in check by the secular government there. If Israel ever became a failed state, all hell would break lose there -- and before you say, no, there aren't, take a look at some of the recent price tag attacks in the Palestinian territories)."

Actually - this statement is incorrect and couldn't be further from the truth. Once again read the writings of Mohammed's contemporaries and how he went from being a trader of goods to a religious leader. In fact in Mohammed's own writings, he clearly states his search for religion started when he realized the success of jewish and Christian nations in business versus the lack of success of his own people on the Arabian Peninsula. He recognized that a unified people under a single monotheistic religion gave them a political and economic advantage. In contrast - the multiple tribes in Arabia had different polyutheistic religions that kept each tribe at war with itself - and making economic and political progress impossible. The Caba - the center of the Muslim holy site at Mecca - was originally the one place in Arabia these tribes could not fight and it housed all the idols of all the gods from these tribes.

Mohammed sought out the "one God" in order to bring political and economic change to the Arabian Peninsula. Hence - Islam - unlike other religions have attributes and conditions that can be associated with a political and social ideology as well as a practice of faith. The Al Hadith itself was the document that translated the writings and words of Mohammed into a political and legal framework for Muslim society. The fact the Al Hadith is given almost as much importance as the Quran in Muslim societies sheds light on the inherent political nature of Islam and is why - unlike other religions - it does not integrate well with Western Nations.
 

GSII

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Hugh Hefner is the only person that can solve the issue in the middle east. Him and his Bunnies.
 
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