Bang! That is the truth.
Islam was founded by a brutal warrior and it was spread by the sword. All those peaceful passages in the Quran are superseded by later passages where brutality against non-Muslims is demanded.
OT: Could just be a chemistry experiment gone horribly wrong...
- Thread starter mason89
- Start date
Bang! That is the truth.
Islam was founded by a brutal warrior and it was spread by the sword. All those peaceful passages in the Quran are superseded by later passages where brutality against non-Muslims is demanded.
Think progress - yeah they have an agenda. Interestingly enough when the got the mastermind behind the Paris attacks, he has been hiding out in a Muslim neighborhood. His neighbors fought against the police because he was "their hero". When the shit hits the fan - I won't count on their loyalties .
I agree that moderate Muslims need to step up, but let's not pretend that idiotic foreign policy decisions has not contributed to the mess in the Middle East. It's a cliche yeah, but the war on terror has only led to more terrorists. Of course, there were plenty of people (including Daddy's former advisors) who were telling W not to poke the hornets nest, but he and Valdemort could not resist.
Hillary appears to be neo-con light unfortunately. Saddam and Khadafi were brutal thugs, but I believe things would be 1000x better if we had just leave well enough
alone. Keep the usage of our military limited to some of our elite soldiers who can go in and kill or capture these clowns. Please, no more occupying armies and regime change when ISIS and Al-Queda are stateless cowards. Hopefully Hill has learned, 'cause whatever you think of her she's most likely to be elected prez just before the Pats tip off in the fall.
Lastly, the ban Muslim immigration crowd is embarrassing - playing right into the terrorists hand.
Kansas lost and my bracket blew up, so I went from thinking about what I was gonna to with my winnings to this.
Hillary appears to be neo-con light unfortunately. Saddam and Khadafi were brutal thugs, but I believe things would be 1000x better if we had just leave well enough
alone. Keep the usage of our military limited to some of our elite soldiers who can go in and kill or capture these clowns. Please, no more occupying armies and regime change when ISIS and Al-Queda are stateless cowards. Hopefully Hill has learned, 'cause whatever you think of her she's most likely to be elected prez just before the Pats tip off in the fall.
Lastly, the ban Muslim immigration crowd is embarrassing - playing right into the terrorists hand.
Kansas lost and my bracket blew up, so I went from thinking about what I was gonna to with my winnings to this.
One thing, the Iraq and Libya situations were vastly different. Libya was well on its way to becoming a Syria when NATO stepped in and started bombing and given Libya's proximity to Italy and France, those two countries were very nervous about what was going to happen.
CHRISTOPHER JAMES JOLLAY
Hall of Famer
Do we have the name of the dumb little hajis that thought they could set up a meth lab in Jefferson to pay for their fledgling ISIS cell?
phoenix-arizona
All-American
Muslims have no obligation to speak out against violence . They don't have to defend the actions of their fellow co religious . But they often do.
http://www.usnews.com/news/the-repo...enounce-terrorism-though-the-media-ignores-it
http://www.usnews.com/news/the-repo...enounce-terrorism-though-the-media-ignores-it
Jim to be honest I discount the foreign policy blunders - and there were some blunders. They will hate the west and seek to conquer it regardless of our position or involvement in the ME. Keep in mind they invaded Europe unprovoked in the 7th and 8th centuries. Osama Bin Laden saw the US directly help his own mujahideen against the soviets in Afghanistan - while he took the help - according to his own writings he resented the US as a Kufir nation and never wanted to depend on them. Leaving them alone is not enough their goal is to destroy what we are - a non-muslim western nation.
In fact I think we should go the other way. The only thing islamic cultures respect is strength. I would argue the way we fought the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan demonstrated weakness. We would back away from mosques event thought they were being used as firebases, we tried very hard to avoid collateral damage etc. I think it was Gen Ordierno back in 2004 who wrote an article about the failure of this approach. He said we turned Germany and Japan from enemies into allies by bringing their entire nations to their knees in abject suffering through total war. In WWII we went after civilian targets to break popular support for the wars. In ME countries - the people resent weakness and follow strength.
What we should have done in those wars is simply level the countries - eliminate their ability to produce or buy food, deliver and transport water and eliminate their hospitals, healthcare facilities, and schools. Demonstrate that the chest beating Al Queda and ISIS cannot withstand total war and demonstrate your ability to deliver total war to them. When they are starving, cold, thirsty, and sick with no shelters or homes - they will be on their knees and they will - like all humans - submit. That is the mistake we made in those wars and our actions against ISIS now. Make them feel that they have pricked the finger of the world's greatest super power and that we have not lost our cultural capability to defense ourselves.
And one of those actions is to not let one single refugee into the US or Europe. We can help them on the ground in the ME but do not let the cultural invasion into the west. Unless - they openly submit to assimilation and cultural accommodation with the west.
phoenix-arizona
All-American
Didn't the United States go into those countries to liberate them from their awful rulers? I thought those was the stated reasons. So why in the world would we wage total war on their population--"eliminate their ability to produce or buy food, deliver and transport water and eliminate their hospitals, healthcare facilities, and schools'' Ted Cruz?
Do you just see Muslims as some monolithic enemy?
Do you just see Muslims as some monolithic enemy?
phoenix-arizona
All-American
Religious texts are full of violence, and full of love and tolerance. Religion, religious texts are both violent and peaceful, full of love and hate. It's up to each and every worshiper what to do with the material they run into.
No the situations in the ME with our two wars and now present different scenarios - but the total war approach is still applicable. We didn't see Germans or Japanese as monolithic in WWII - but we did not hesitate or pull punches in our war effort.
No but there are countries who are now turning and because of our weakness in front of ISIS - the local populations are starting to turn to ISIS in their support as they see them as the strong horse that will run things for a while - also they are afraid of them. Our pin prick approach to fighting ISIS has only demonstrated weakness and prompted more aggression.
With regards to Iraq and Afghanistan there are two different stories here.
In afghanistan - there is not the population density so we should have hit those specific areas much harder and not stepped back from certain areas - Obama's retreat on the one war he supported did not help.
In Iraq - we were relieving local populations - so you are right the scenario is a bit different there. However in our attacks on strongholds like Mosul - we should have gone in with the total war strategy - the local residents did not leave when warned and the radical were holing up in Mosques and we prevented our troops from attacking those Mosques - so as not to inflame the residents - the same residents who were fighting us. If we level three mosques with out delay - it would have done two things - communicated that we are not government by political correctness when it comes to war and two it would have prevented future scenarios where the enemy would have used mosques as a "political shield".
No I am sorry - not even close. True other religions have had other extremists and radicals (mostly in the past) but they were acting on clear misreadings of religious texts. In Islam - the direction is quite clear and far more pronounced. You cannot be a pious Muslim without agreeing to explicit texts in the Quran and the Al Hadith that state non muslims are less than human and Kufirs and are open for slaughter or enslavement. You are repeating the oft spoken myth of the multicultural left who want to abandon critical thinking for emotion.
Case in point - we had Persian neighbors who were muslim but quite friendly. We actually had them over for dinner and the man's wife came over for tips on gardening and lawn upkeep (I have a hell of a green thumb).
We got into a conversation about this very topic one afternoon, and I asked her why didn't we see more radical pushes across the US as they have in Europe. She told me two things - 1.) Muslims are in much smaller numbers and concentrations in the US and 2.) The US holds its cultural beliefs and Judeo-Christian identity more strongly as opposed to Europe who has abandoned those beliefs. In the presence of that strength - she said that you get what they have in Europe. However, she said - if muslim numbers increase and they sense the cultural decay they see in Europe - she said it will be recreated here because their faith says they need to convert the world through suasion of force - that is how Muhammed spread the faith in the Middle East. She even told a story that is told in her own Mosque - Medina in Saudia Arabia used to be a Jewish city - Mohammed was given shelter as a refugee when he was trying to convert the Peninsulas. A year after he was granted asylum along with his men - the Jewish population was forcibly converted or executed. And now you don't here about any Jewish influence in Medina. Ans her quote was this - "That is our model" .
So I will have to objectively disagree with your assessment based on a very clear reading of the Quran and what we see playing out in current events and in history.
Not to mention we were fighting actual countries in WWII, not terrorists who are spread out all over the place. Talk about creating more terrorists.
phoenix-arizona
All-American
I have no skin in this fight. I am not a Muslim, think Islam has issues, has pushed some people to commit terrible acts of violence.
I think it is interesting (and I've run into this sentiment many times) that people want to let other religions off the hook when it comes to violence in their texts, but when it comes to Islam, and it seems to only happen to Islam, the violent in the Koran is never misunderstood or misinterpreted (like in other faiths). When violence pops up in Islam it's ONLY because of Islam, not any sort of misunderstanding of meaning.
If Allah so willed, He would have made you a single People, but His plan is to test each of you separately, in what He has given to each of you: so strive in all virtues as in you are in a race. The goal of all of you is to Allah. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.
And dispute not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless I be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury, but say to them: "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him that we bow." (Quran29:46)
“O You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of satan. He is an outright enemy to you.” (Holy Quran: 2, 208)
“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)
I think it is interesting (and I've run into this sentiment many times) that people want to let other religions off the hook when it comes to violence in their texts, but when it comes to Islam, and it seems to only happen to Islam, the violent in the Koran is never misunderstood or misinterpreted (like in other faiths). When violence pops up in Islam it's ONLY because of Islam, not any sort of misunderstanding of meaning.
If Allah so willed, He would have made you a single People, but His plan is to test each of you separately, in what He has given to each of you: so strive in all virtues as in you are in a race. The goal of all of you is to Allah. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.
And dispute not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless I be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury, but say to them: "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him that we bow." (Quran29:46)
“O You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of satan. He is an outright enemy to you.” (Holy Quran: 2, 208)
“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)
Boy this is going to be a long damn off season.
e Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by historical context contained in the surrounding text (although many Muslims choose to think of them that way). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran.
Quran
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.
Broads, Buicks, and Buckley
Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by historical context contained in the surrounding text (although many Muslims choose to think of them that way). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran.
Quran
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.
Broads, Buicks, and Buckley
to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).
Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
Broads, Buicks, and Buckley
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).
Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
Broads, Buicks, and Buckley
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.
Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."
Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."
Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."
Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.
Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.
Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.
Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam "superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.
Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
Broads, Buicks, and Buckley
Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."
Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."
Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."
Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.
Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.
Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.
Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam "superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.
Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
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So obviously the Koran writers and the Koran have contradictions and contradict themselves.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html
Which is what you'd expect from a text written by fallable humans.
And that is what I am trying to say about religions and religious texts. They promote violence, they promote peace. They promote hate and they promote love.
It is about how the worshipper reads and interprets those texts.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html
Which is what you'd expect from a text written by fallable humans.
And that is what I am trying to say about religions and religious texts. They promote violence, they promote peace. They promote hate and they promote love.
It is about how the worshipper reads and interprets those texts.
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GiantKiller.co
ByGeorge
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Fourth Estate
Doc Nix and the Green Machine
Bill Bride - DMV Sports Shots
Patriot Brew Blog/Newsletter