Hewitt, Extension, wait, what?

[Raider_SPE]

I can't even post anything about it on my social media pages -- I work in local media and I'm pretty sure my bosses would be less than thrilled to see me opining about much of anything.

Ah, I did not know you were still working that side.

 

[gmujim92]

Ah, I did not know you were still working that side.

I'm in news now, not sports. But my bosses don't draw much of a distinction -- I'm not a columnist and they don't want me running off with my opinions about vcu or anything else.

 

[MasonFanatic]

I had no idea... that makes me feel so much better about how Mason spends its money.

 

[GMUgemini]

I had no idea... that makes me feel so much better about how Mason spends its money.

I argued for quite a while last year about understanding Mason's approach (redoing the RAC and Field House vs. building a practice facility etc.). I just wish someone at the university could properly sell it to the public.

 

[gmujim92]

http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports...cle_051a4a64-a881-11e3-b540-0017a43b2370.html

vcu athletics director Ed McLaughlin said the two-story, 60,000-square-foot facility will be paid for with $14.5 million in private donations and $10.5 million from reallocating part of student fees that are being used to pay off part of the debt on the Siegel Center.

 

[wijg]

Not sure if your post was serious or tongue in cheek, but vcu only gives basketball tickets to 2,000 of its 32,000 students, which means that the other 30,000 aren't exactly getting "better use" of their fees.

Yes, it was tongue in check, mostly. But, even your numbers still point to a better use of funds by vcu than GMU. They turn students away at the doors. How many are we getting at our games...

What is funny is that I made similar arguments you just made about how wrong it is to invest student fees in things that only really benefit a handful of students with regard to our non-revenue generating sports and it was met with fairly boisterous disagreement on here. Now, most seem to be in agreement now that you are making it with regards to vcu. Kind of like politics, it depends on who is getting the freebies as to who people think are "nice".

I know this is blasphemy to say something even remotely positive about vcu on here, but if I had the decision to make over again, and my academic program at vcu was similar quality as it is at GMU (I know, big if...) and the choice came down to better basketball team with higher student fees or mediocre basketball team (I wish...) with lower student fees, I'd choose the better basketball team school. I don't like the GMU approach which seems to be to do it middle of the road. Either commit to being great with the appropriate resources or shut it down. Don't throw good money away...

 

[GMUgemini]

Yes, it was tongue in check, mostly. But, even your numbers still point to a better use of funds by vcu than GMU. They turn students away at the doors. How many are we getting at our games...

What is funny is that I made similar arguments you just made about how wrong it is to invest student fees in things that only really benefit a handful of students with regard to our non-revenue generating sports and it was met with fairly boisterous disagreement on here. Now, most seem to be in agreement now that you are making it with regards to vcu. Kind of like politics, it depends on who is getting the freebies as to who people think are "nice".

I know this is blasphemy to say something even remotely positive about vcu on here, but if I had the decision to make over again, and my academic program at vcu was similar quality as it is at GMU (I know, big if...) and the choice came down to better basketball team with higher student fees or mediocre basketball team (I wish...) with lower student fees, I'd choose the better basketball team school. I don't like the GMU approach which seems to be to do it middle of the road. Either commit to being great with the appropriate resources or shut it down. Don't throw good money away...

Why wouldn't you choose a school like UVA with almost no student fees?

 

[wijg]

Why wouldn't you choose a school like UVA with almost no student fees?

If you read my options, that was not one of them. Of course I would want to pay no fees at all, but again, that wasn't one of the options in my scenario.

 

[gmujim92]

Yes, it was tongue in check, mostly. But, even your numbers still point to a better use of funds by vcu than GMU. They turn students away at the doors. How many are we getting at our games...

What is funny is that I made similar arguments you just made about how wrong it is to invest student fees in things that only really benefit a handful of students with regard to our non-revenue generating sports and it was met with fairly boisterous disagreement on here. Now, most seem to be in agreement now that you are making it with regards to vcu. Kind of like politics, it depends on who is getting the freebies as to who people think are "nice".

I know this is blasphemy to say something even remotely positive about vcu on here, but if I had the decision to make over again, and my academic program at vcu was similar quality as it is at GMU (I know, big if...) and the choice came down to better basketball team with higher student fees or mediocre basketball team (I wish...) with lower student fees, I'd choose the better basketball team school. I don't like the GMU approach which seems to be to do it middle of the road. Either commit to being great with the appropriate resources or shut it down. Don't throw good money away...

Here's my thing, wijg, and keep in mind that I am a big college basketball fan who wants Mason to win as much as anyone here:

Long before university presidents started whoring themselves out for TV millions, non-revenue athletic programs fulfilled a central purpose of higher education, which is to provide a well-rounded experience to students from diverse backgrounds and with equally diverse interests.

This is the model that Mason embraced under Merten, and a major reason why he (as an old-school educator) would've never agreed to spend $25 million on an athletic building that would be off-limits to all but a select group of athletes.

You don't have to agree with him. I disagreed on a number of issues and hope that under the leadership of Cabrera and Edwards, Mason will fully commit to raising and spending the private resources necessary for our flagship program to compete.

But at the same time, I am proud that our new president is sensitive to the fact that college costs are out of control, and that Mason shouldn't add to students' financial burdens in pursuit of athletic glory.

vcu seemingly is willing to sell its soul to become a big-time basketball school. If that's what floats your boat, I'm sure they'd make room for you on the bandwagon.

 

[wijg]

Here's my thing, wijg, and keep in mind that I am a big college basketball fan who wants Mason to win as much as anyone here:

Long before university presidents started whoring themselves out for TV millions, non-revenue athletic programs fulfilled a central purpose of higher education, which is to provide a well-rounded experience to students from diverse backgrounds and with equally diverse interests.

This is the model that Mason embraced under Merten, and a major reason why he (as an old-school educator) would've never agreed to spend $25 million on an athletic building that would be off-limits to all but a select group of athletes.

You don't have to agree with him. I disagreed on a number of issues and hope that under the leadership of Cabrera and Edwards, Mason will fully commit to raising and spending the private resources necessary for our flagship program to compete.

But at the same time, I am proud that our new president is sensitive to the fact that college costs are out of control, and that Mason shouldn't add to students' financial burdens in pursuit of athletic glory.

vcu seemingly is willing to sell its soul to become a big-time basketball school. If that's what floats your boat, I'm sure they'd make room for you on the bandwagon.

That could easily be a copy and paste of the rationalizations of every fan of every mediocre to bad team in D1 college sports...

Why even operate a D1 sports program if that is your concern? You can get the same benefits without the high student fees operating non-scholarship programs. To use your analogy, Mason seems to be doing the "let's whore ourselves out only 3 times a week so we can be mediocre". If you are a whore, it doesn't matter how much you whore yourself out, you are still a whore (I have no problems with whores).

If presidents really cared about education costs, they'd address the real issues that are driving the costs up (like tenured professors that work a couple hours a week). They would focus on things that produce students that are ready to work real world jobs, but their snooty, elitist mentalities find that seems too much like vocational training, so they throw around phrases like "well-rounded experience to students from diverse backgrounds and with equally diverse interests" to justify things.

 

[GMUgemini]

Wijg, you do realize you went to a research one university and that forcing tenured professors to be in the classroom more would fundamentally change the classification of the university you are attending or attended

 

[gmujim92]

wijg, again, if you're looking to evaluate the quality of a university by the success (both on-court and marketing) of its basketball program, that's certainly your right.

I want to win, and if Edwards proves capable of raising a gazillion bucks in private donations, I hope he's allowed to spend it on a new baseball stadium and whatever other athletic infrastructure he deems necessary.

I just don't believe in soaking students who are already going deep in debt to obtain a college degree. It's unethical and simply not sustainable over the long haul.

 

[Vurbel]

It's not an either/or deal. You can value academics AND basketball. Duke does it on a much larger level. I know it's apples and oranges, but the concept of valuing both is the same.

But if the going rate is X amount of money to field a competitive team and we are not willing to do that then we need to be prepared for mediocrity. Whatever is needed to play with the big boys we should do and do it quickly. Paying our coach (to stay), raising ticket prices, raising student fees, selling naming rights to everything under the sun, whatever.

It's the cost of doing business. If we're not prepared to do that we should just move to the Patriot League and call it a day.

 

[phoenix-arizona]

What is the value of all of this? In the end, what's it worth ? Do these games have any meaning besides some pride factor we add ourselves? Is there a correlation between doing well in a sport and raising the academic profile of the university(better students better professors doing better research )?

 

[Vurbel]

What is the value of all of this? In the end, what's it worth ? Do these games have any meaning besides some pride factor we add ourselves? Is there a correlation between doing well in a sport and raising the academic profile of the university(better students better professors doing better research )?

Actually, there is a correlation. Just as a result of the Final Four:

Admissions

• Freshmen applications have increased by 20 percent.
• The number and size of campus tours for prospective students and parents nearly tripled.

Alumni Relations

• Mason alumni who registered with the online alumni directory have grown by more than 52 percent.
• There is a 24 percent increase in alumni e-mail addresses now registered on record.
• There is a 25 percent increase in active alumni.

Development/Fundraising

• Mason received more than $23.2 million in new gifts and pledge payments compared to $19.6 million the previous year.
• Donations to athletic programs increased by 25 percent.
• General scholarship support nearly tripled.
• Unrestricted gifts to the university increased by nearly 45 percent.

http://eagle.gmu.edu/newsroom/591/

 

[GMUgemini]

It's not an either/or deal. You can value academics AND basketball. Duke does it on a much larger level. I know it's apples and oranges, but the concept of valuing both is the same.

But if the going rate is X amount of money to field a competitive team and we are not willing to do that then we need to be prepared for mediocrity. Whatever is needed to play with the big boys we should do and do it quickly. Paying our coach (to stay), raising ticket prices, raising student fees, selling naming rights to everything under the sun, whatever.

It's the cost of doing business. If we're not prepared to do that we should just move to the Patriot League and call it a day.

I would argue in terms of budget we already are. We were at the top of the CAA and in the middle of the pack now I'm the A10, which is understandable. You don't go from 3 million a year to 5 million a year in one season.

 

[KAOriginal]

What vcu is doing with basketball is no different than the big college football programs, just on a smaller scale. Unifying a student body and gaining marketing and publicity with the public.

No matter how you feel about spending, you cant argue that an energized student body is a good thing for any school. I have been sad to see Mason take the opposite tack....we're unified by the fact we're so diverse. Oh and we like sports, just not alot. Well that's BS. It doesn't work.

I can tell you the secretary at the VDOT offices in downtown Richmond, that had no kids or grand kids going to vcu is a big fan buys apparel and goes to games. And I know she is not the only one. No different than when I was down in Baton Rouge...and being told how the majority of people buying tickets, jerseys, watching games. etc...have NO DIRECT ties to the school.

It's a good thing.

And yes while Mason has some great things going on, the reality is people don't care if we are doing advanced biological research at the PW campus. It doesn't sync with them and their everyday lives.

As pointed out above by someone...if you're not going to care about using your premier sport as a driving force for student and alumni involvement and external imaging...then quit wasting money and just play intramural. The "athletic" kids can still get their "well rounded" academic education at a far lessor expense...

 

[GSII]

Has anyone comapred the % of gmu student fees going to athletics vs those of other schools? Is this even possible to look up? I ask bc of vcu students pay the same then its a moot point. If we are charging x amount for more sports and vcu charges the same then we are stupid for having too many non revenue sports and dragging down the revenue sports.

 

[gmujim92]

The student fee figures are available, but I'm too tired to look them up.

Our students pay less than any other Virginia public school besides UVa and Tech, but vcu's aren't awful either compared to the football schools. Those are the real money pits.

vcu is just all-in on basketball. I know some coaches of Olympic sports there and to say they're scrambling for crumbs off of Shaka's table is an understatement.

I don't think it's necessary for Mason to do the same. We just need to let our AD off the fundraising leash so we can afford our non-revenue sports and still move our basketball funding closer to the top of the A-10.

 

[gmujim92]

What vcu is doing with basketball is no different than the big college football programs, just on a smaller scale. Unifying a student body and gaining marketing and publicity with the public.

No matter how you feel about spending, you cant argue that an energized student body is a good thing for any school. I have been sad to see Mason take the opposite tack....we're unified by the fact we're so diverse. Oh and we like sports, just not alot. Well that's BS. It doesn't work.

I can tell you the secretary at the VDOT offices in downtown Richmond, that had no kids or grand kids going to vcu is a big fan buys apparel and goes to games. And I know she is not the only one. No different than when I was down in Baton Rouge...and being told how the majority of people buying tickets, jerseys, watching games. etc...have NO DIRECT ties to the school.

It's a good thing.

And yes while Mason has some great things going on, the reality is people don't care if we are doing advanced biological research at the PW campus. It doesn't sync with them and their everyday lives.

As pointed out above by someone...if you're not going to care about using your premier sport as a driving force for student and alumni involvement and external imaging...then quit wasting money and just play intramural. The "athletic" kids can still get their "well rounded" academic education at a far lessor expense...

If you think what vcu is doing is sustainable in the long term, you're kidding yourself.

They have significantly increased their donor base, but despite the endless hype/media fawning over Shaka and Havoc and even their obnoxious pep band, they still couldn't fully fund their practice facility with private money.

What does that tell you? It tells me that not enough of their fans are either willing or able to put their money where their loud mouths are.

At some point, when students and their parents finally start paying attention to what universities are actually doing with their millions in student fees, there's going to be hell to pay.

Because it's fairly scandalous, politicians are starting to warm to the issue. Lots of talk around the state capital about "encouraging" universities to stop funding their athletic departments on the backs of their students.

Without student fees, vcu couldn't afford to pay Shaka $1.5 million, build a shiny new practice facility or have the highest basketball budget in the A-10.

Shaka is one hell of a coach, obviously, but the rest of it is just so much smoke and mirrors.