Searching for Vaughn Gray

[Cool Disco Dan]

As much as I like giving Moore additional minutes, the solution might be to start Allen, Sherrod and Holloway in the backcourt and then bring Moore and Gray off the bench. Corey would be used sparingly as needed.

Exactly. BA, Sherrod and Pat are our best 3 players -- you have to find ways to get them on the court together. The choices are BA at PG or a 4 guard lineup. As much as I'd love to see us go small and up-tempo with Moore, Pat, BA, Sherrod and JJ/Marko, it doesn't seem to be something Hewitt would even entertain...So hand BA the ball and hope nobody presses.

 

[gmutom]

If I was coaching this team — and I did coach 12-year-olds for 6 years, thereby making me very qualified — I would never have less than three guards on the floor. The 80 frontcourt minutes would be divided by Marko, Jenkins, J2, Copes and Okoloji (only when needed). The only deviation I would ever make here is maybe giving Marko a few minutes at the wing if we needed to go bigger.

If Marko solely played the 4, that would leave me 120 minutes to divide evenly among our PGs, guards and wings. If I go with Moore and Edwards for a combined 30 minutes at the point, that leaves me 90 minutes to split between Allen, Wright, Holloway and Gray at the 2 and 3. I'm giving Allen the additional 10 minutes at PG — we need him on the court 30 minutes — so I could theoretically divide 80 minutes at the 2 and 3 like this:

Allen: 20 (30 minutes total)
Wright: 25
Holloway: 25
Gray: 10

My one caveat here is that Gray has to do more than just standing around on the perimeter to warrant his minutes. Playing him 10 minutes or even more means that Allen, Wright and Holloway are playing less, so this can't just be about "it's not fair he's not playing."

The last time Vaughan got significant minutes against Oklahoma, he was 3-11 from the floor and 1-6 from behind the arc. He also had no assists, which is a problem across the board for all of our guards. I think he deserves a chance to show he can make us better, I'm just not convinced he can — even with Sherrod is his horrific slump.

 

[Cool Disco Dan]

If I was coaching this team — and I did coach 12-year-olds for 6 years, thereby making me very qualified — I would never have less than three guards on the floor. The 80 frontcourt minutes would be divided by Marko, Jenkins, J2, Copes and Okoloji (only when needed). The only deviation I would ever make here is maybe giving Marko a few minutes at the wing if we needed to go bigger.

If Marko solely played the 4, that would leave me 120 minutes to divide evenly among our PGs, guards and wings.

We've focused a lot on Sherrod's lackluster play, but Marko has had a lot of empty minutes after a really nice start to the season. How are you dividing up the 80 frontcourt minutes? 20 a piece for Marko, JJ, J2 and Copes? I'd rather see Copes logging about 8 mins a game at this point...

 

[Pablo]

We've focused a lot on Sherrod's lackluster play, but Marko has had a lot of empty minutes after a really nice start to the season. How are you dividing up the 80 frontcourt minutes? 20 a piece for Marko, JJ, J2 and Copes? I'd rather see Copes logging about 8 mins a game at this point...

Am I the only one who thought Erik Copes played well last game?

 

[gmubrian]

The last time Vaughan got significant minutes against Oklahoma, he was 3-11 from the floor and 1-6 from behind the arc. He also had no assists, which is a problem across the board for all of our guards. I think he deserves a chance to show he can make us better, I'm just not convinced he can — even with Sherrod is his horrific slump.

Tom-in that same game, Sherrod was 2-9 from the floor and 0-4 from behind the arc. Both had 7 points, but Gray did it in 5 fewer minutes 28 versus 23. If we factor in defense, can anyone be much worse than wright on defense.

Wright has scored 2, 3, 7 and 8 since then in significant minutes in all but one of those.

Using the measures you supplied, I'd say he deserves at least as much playing time as wright, if not more, so he has a chance to show his star power. We have Gray for another year...

As Jollay has said, there seems to be a double standard.

 

[gmubrian]

Am I the only one who thought Erik Copes played well last game?

I thought he did too, but i am waiting for a two game streak from any of our bigs before I get my hopes up.

 

[PoorManProfit]

Am I the only one who thought Erik Copes played well last game?

He was out of position a lot as usual. And, even if he did play well, who cares. None of these guys is consistent.

 

[gmutom]

As Jollay has said, there seems to be a double standard.

Of course there is a double standard when you are talking about a backup guard and one of the best scorers in our school's history. Unless Sherrod isn't hustling and trying his hardest, he absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt. He's earned that in my book.

That said, in my coaching scenario, I have reduced Sherrod's minutes due to his slump to give Gray an opportunity. What I'm not going to do is divide the minutes evenly between them just because a few fans think I am favoring one or punishing the other.

 

[gmutom]

How are you dividing up the 80 frontcourt minutes?

Dan, because most of our frontcourt players are interchangeable and wildly inconsistent, I'd probably go with the following as a blueprint and then deviate based on who is playing well on a given night:

Jenkins: 25
Marko 25
J2: 15
Copes: 15
Okoloji: used as necessary

 

[gmubrian]

How many games do you let a guy who has frequently disappeared from games one half at a time , and has now gone 5 games straight doing almost nothing? Especially when we have Gray for another year. At this point I would completely swap their minutes. Let's see how long it takes Wright to get into a groove when he is getting the garbage minutes Gray is getting. Maybe Gray can get into a groove getting Wrights minutes.

 

[Cool Disco Dan]

Am I the only one who thought Erik Copes played well last game?

He played one of his better games so far this season but, even with that being the case, it wasn't nearly as good as the game Jenkins had...And, based on what we've seen thus far, I can't see giving him as many minutes as JJ, Marko, or J2.

 

[gmutom]

How many games do you let a guy who has frequently disappeared from games one half at a time , and has now gone 5 games straight doing almost nothing?

Brian, that's never an easy question for us coaches, but you have to go with your gut. Imagine if Coach L had benched Lamar Butler at the end of his senior year when he was going through a horrible slump similar to — if not worse — than Sherrod's right now. Coach L allowed Lamar to work through it, and he became the face of our Final 4 run.

Shooters, like baseball players, go through slumps, and you have no choice but to let them ride it out. While you as a fan have the luxury of looking ahead to next year, my job as a coach is to win this season. And I have to have faith in my star player that he is going to break out of it sooner rather than later, because he gives me the best chance to win when he is playing well.

 

[Bricker]

Am I the only one who thought Erik Copes played well last game?

I was actually surprised with his shot. And I think he only committed 2 fouls.

 

[gmubrian]

While you as a fan have the luxury of looking ahead to next year, my job as a coach is to win this season. And I have to have faith in my star player that he is going to break out of it sooner rather than later, because he gives me the best chance to win when he is playing well.

Well, then you have not been doing your job this year and you should no longer be a coach. You should just be a fan as well. You should have been giving your guy on the bench, who by every report lights it up in practice, a chance with some meaningful minutes, especially when it was clear that our OOC was completely meaningless. You seem to have no foresight as a coach and should be fired immediately.

Hopefully, when you see that we aren't going to win any games in conference either with your so called "star" player, you will start looking towards the future because today's game is yesterday's future.

 

[gmutom]

...who by every report lights it up in practice...

Every report? Exactly what reports are you referring to? I remember Bill Rohland tweeting before the season started that Gray looked very good in practice, but that was four months ago. I'm pretty sure you just made that up.

Listen, we agree it would be nice to see Gray get some more time. I just think you severely overvalue the impact he can make and vastly underrate how important Sherrod is to this team.

 

[GMUgemini]

Plus, given how soft out defense is, I wouldn't put any stock in what happens in practice

 

[gmubrian]

E I just think you severely overvalue the impact he can make and vastly underrate how important Sherrod is to this team.

Really? Let's take a look at some hard numbers. I have normalized these by dividing by every ten minutes played (I used ten to make the numbers a little more palatable for discussion):

______Points/Min_Rebounds/Min_TO/Min_Assists/Min
Wright _4.30______1.21_________0.86____0.30
Gray___3.02______1.01_________0.40____0.36

I think most would agree that we could expect Gray to improve some with consistent playing time to allow him to get into a rhythm. While Wright has a lead in the points category, if you factor in his hideous turnover numbers (more than twice as many per minute than Gray), it really negates Wright's contributions.

I have not done this in the above numbers, but if you factor out games when Gray only got garbage minutes, which one could argue is justified since it is hard to come in cold and perform right away it would likely improve his numbers. Additionally, it further handicaps Gray when he gets yanked after making a mistake. It does not give him time to recover.

I am not saying Vaughn Gray is putting up superstar numbers, but Wright has not been performing like a superstar for almost the entire year. He has been given a chance to show what he can do and I would argue it is not impressive for a supposed superstar player. His defensive issues are starting to outweigh his offensive issues, and with his recent slump, he is more of a liability at the present time.

It is long overdue that Gray be given a fighting chance, with meaningful minutes to see if he can turn into a star. At this point, the numbers show he is not really a downgrade from Wright, and he has more potential upside (more room to show improvement and we have him for another year).

 

[gmutom]

It is long overdue that Gray be given a fighting chance, with meaningful minutes to see if he can turn into a star.

Seriously, you have to be kidding with this crap about Gray being a star. I'm completely on board that he should be playing about 10 minutes a game, but what exactly have you seen from VG that indicates he could ever be a star — and I'm not talking about stats or projections?

Trust me, if he is as good as you want him to be, the coaches would find a way to play him 30 minutes a game. The fact that he can't even crack the rotation has to tell you that something is missing.

How about we just hope he gets on the court and scores a few buckets and plays some good defense? Baby steps...

 

[Pablo]

Seriously, you have to be kidding with this crap about Gray being a star. I'm completely on board that he should be playing about 10 minutes a game, but what exactly have you seen from VG that indicates he could ever be a star — and I'm not talking about stats or projections?

Trust me, if he is as good as you want him to be, the coaches would find a way to play him 30 minutes a game. The fact that he can't even crack the rotation has to tell you that something is missing.

How about we just hope he gets on the court and scores a few buckets and plays some good defense? Baby steps...

Tom,

I believe that the only one who actually called Gray a star was AAUman. Has he abandon Gray? And, Gray was in the regular rotation this season until the second half of the Iowa State game.

 

[gmubrian]

Seriously, you have to be kidding with this crap about Gray being a star.

Tom, you are the only one spewing "crap". No one has said Gray was a star. I just want to see him play enough to see if there is anything there. You can't back up your posts with numbers so you resort to foul language. The numbers show that Wright is not producing any better than gray. How could Gray be a star, he rarely gets a chance to show whether or not he is. Wright has been virtually non-existent for probably 2 to 3 times as many minutes as Gray has even had playing time.

Why can we let a young player like Holloway ride through a horrible slump to see if he can become a star, but never give Gray that same chance? Especially when there is currently a perfect opportunity to insert him in the lineup as a replacement for Wright?