NIL Thread

[jessej]

I found this interesting, yet i still wonder if it reaches fruition and remains stable over time

125 athletes - 85 Scholarship football players + 20 walk ons + 14 scholarship men's bball players + ?

125 * $36000 = $4.5 Million per year (not accounting for yearly inflation)

endowment at 5% draw = $90 million
endowment at 8% draw = $56.25 million

SMU donor group to pay student-athletes $36K a year through NIL

Paying college athletes has been a sore subject at SMU for decades. But now through NIL, donors are legally paying athletes. It’s not just SMU athletes benefiting from NIL. UNT and schools across Texas are doing the same.

www.fox4news.com

https://www.si.com/college/2022/08/08/smu-football-basketball-players-receive-36000-nil-collective?fbclid=IwAR3Ui4GGhUj_KGLFQKzOKMl7WMJNeOPUVcAJ_naGOCpN8vymBAdKXNu8vng

and it raises a whole bunch of questions
what about the women athletes?
what about the non football and non bball athletes?
is this taxable income? and to whom? the player or the collective?
what is the collective's management stake?
is this compatible with Title IX?

Funds raised are not tax deductible
that is a whole lot of $25 donations from guys like me to get to $90 million

 

[jessej]

Mayland is the only program in the area at the D 1A football level
Howard is D 1AA
Georgetown is D2 and in the Patriot League competing at a minimal - if any - scholarship level
GWU, American, and GMU have no football program - so men's BBall is the marquee sport

The new Georgetown BBall Coach said that he needs $2 million in yearly NIL money to be competitive
and it is not coming out of his $6M yearly salary
that is a $40M endowment at a 5% draw
and $25M endowment at a 8% draw

any ideas on what GMU, GWU and American need to be competitive?
assuming they/we are not in a talent competition with Maryland nor Georgetown.

 

[Five Two]

I know there will be plenty of SMU jokes based on their escapades in the 80s, but credit the SMU fans for coming up with all that money.
I saw an article where Maryland football just opened a new training facility and the head coach half-jokingly said his players would rather get dressed in a bathroom if it meant they could get paid $25K.

 

[gmubrian]

and it raises a whole bunch of questions
what about the women athletes?
what about the non football and non bball athletes?
is this taxable income? and to whom? the player or the collective?
what is the collective's management stake?
is this compatible with Title IX?

I'll try to answer your questions:

what about the women athletes? Women are free to take advantage of NIL the same as men. At one point about 6 months to a year ago, I saw a stat that women were outpacing men. The logic I saw was that they have more marketing opportunities.

what about the non football and non bball athletes? Same answer. All athletes are weclome to take advantage of NIL. NIL collectives are free to raise funds for whatever sports they choose to support.

is this taxable income? and to whom? the player or the collective? If you are talking the endowment (as you refer to it), it is the collective. The money paid to each athlete is taxable income for that athlete.

what is the collective's management stake? Each collective determines their own. Our Patriot Nation Collective is very lean in terms of money that doesn't make it directly to the athletes. Most of the services to run it are donated. Some expenses like filing fees, hosting etc. are paid out of the collective.

is this compatible with Title IX? This isn't school money so Title IX does not apply.

If it helps, I think most people can answer their questions about NIL when they are reminded that NIL has, essentially, nothing to do with the NCAA or the schools. The NCAA was, previously, illegally preventing players from profiting off of their name and the supreme court put an end to that. NIL is an agreement between an entity (corporation typically) and an athlete (not the school, not the NCAA). If you keep that in mind, most of the answers flow from that.

 

[jessej]

I'll try to answer your questions:

what about the women athletes? Women are free to take advantage of NIL the same as men. At one point about 6 months to a year ago, I saw a stat that women were outpacing men. The logic I saw was that they have more marketing opportunities.

what about the non football and non bball athletes? Same answer. All athletes are weclome to take advantage of NIL. NIL collectives are free to raise funds for whatever sports they choose to support.

is this taxable income? and to whom? the player or the collective? If you are talking the endowment (as you refer to it), it is the collective. The money paid to each athlete is taxable income for that athlete.

what is the collective's management stake? Each collective determines their own. Our Patriot Nation Collective is very lean in terms of money that doesn't make it directly to the athletes. Most of the services to run it are donated. Some expenses like filing fees, hosting etc. are paid out of the collective.

is this compatible with Title IX? This isn't school money so Title IX does not apply.

If it helps, I think most people can answer their questions about NIL when they are reminded that NIL has, essentially, nothing to do with the NCAA or the schools. The NCAA was, previously, illegally preventing players from profiting off of their name and the supreme court put an end to that. NIL is an agreement between an entity (corporation typically) and an athlete (not the school, not the NCAA). If you keep that in mind, most of the answers flow from that.

Based on this article it seems that only the Men's BBall and Football team will get paid.
In some sense that is "fair" because they are the only potential revenue producing sports.
I can imagine all the other athletes at those schools not being happy with that arrangement.

 

[Masonfan3]

Based on this article it seems that only the Men's BBall and Football team will get paid.
In some sense that is "fair" because they are the only potential revenue producing sports.
I can imagine all the other athletes at those schools not being happy with that arrangement.

Also what I don't understand is how is this not "pay for play" which is supposed to still be illegal? It is a huge recruiting advantage because Rhett Lashlee (football coach) or Rob Lanier (bball coach) can walk into a recruits house and say, "you come here and you are guaranteed to make $36k." And to say it isn't the schools money is a bunch of crap. SMU is doing the same thing they did years ago when they got the death penalty except now it is "legal"

 

[Patriotsince81]

Staying on topic but with a bit of a twist. Athletes have been getting paid for decades it's just out in the open now. A friend and former colleague of mine played football for a major SEC program in the 80's. He used to go to an alums house and the guy would ask him to take his car to get it washed. The alum would say something like, "If you happen to check the glove box while you're out and there's an envelope in it, just take it." Cash, in the tens of thousands, depending on how good you were would be in the envelope. No record, no taxes, no worries.

 

[jessej]

The incoming football recruiting class at SMU is not Top 10. I would think that $36k per year - before taxes - would be an incentive for some 4 star football players to attend SMU. But they aren't there - at least not yet.
A careful read of the article shows a bunch wills, woulds, plans, and hope toos. So even with all of the press about the program i wonder how far along they really are - in terms of collecting the money and even disbursing funds or setting up an endowment?

 

[gmubrian]

Also what I don't understand is how is this not "pay for play" which is supposed to still be illegal? It is a huge recruiting advantage because Rhett Lashlee (football coach) or Rob Lanier (bball coach) can walk into a recruits house and say, "you come here and you are guaranteed to make $36k." And to say it isn't the schools money is a bunch of crap. SMU is doing the same thing they did years ago when they got the death penalty except now it is "legal"

Technically, what you describe is illegal. The coach can't offer a kid money to come play. Now, the kid can easily find the article and know what he has coming.

 

[Patriot8]

Technically, what you describe is illegal. The coach can't offer a kid money to come play. Now, the kid can easily find the article and know what he has coming.

The coach can't tell a player he will be paid, but he can point to examples of what other players make.

 

[Patriot8]

The incoming football recruiting class at SMU is not Top 10. I would think that $36k per year - before taxes - would be an incentive for some 4 star football players to attend SMU. But they aren't there - at least not yet.
A careful read of the article shows a bunch wills, woulds, plans, and hope toos. So even with all of the press about the program i wonder how far along they really are - in terms of collecting the money and even disbursing funds or setting up an endowment?

If they want to compete for 4 stars in Texas, they need to come to the table with a lot more than 36k a year. That's child's play.

 

[Masonfan3]

Technically, what you describe is illegal. The coach can't offer a kid money to come play. Now, the kid can easily find the article and know what he has coming.

Haha yes, it is "technically illegal" but those coaches are going to make sure that the kids are seeing the article, I mean I would if I were them. My point is how is it legal to set up something like this before the season starts? And how is it legal for coaching candidates to talk about NIL and what amount they need for the program? Schools and coaches should be completely separate from any NIL deals...obviously it would still happen but how is it legal/ok for coaches to go public with their demands? Not saying I am opposed to NIL or anything, but its obvious that pay for play is in full effect so why not just make everything legal....

 

[jessej]

NCAA continues to plot its own downfall

In Latest NIL Memo, NCAA Tells Schools To Ignore State Laws

Because of the latest NCAA NIL memo, schools must now decide whether to eschew NCAA rules in the hopes that state lawmakers protect them.

frontofficesports.com

 

[gmubrian]

Haha yes, it is "technically illegal" but those coaches are going to make sure that the kids are seeing the article, I mean I would if I were them. My point is how is it legal to set up something like this before the season starts? And how is it legal for coaching candidates to talk about NIL and what amount they need for the program? Schools and coaches should be completely separate from any NIL deals...obviously it would still happen but how is it legal/ok for coaches to go public with their demands? Not saying I am opposed to NIL or anything, but its obvious that pay for play is in full effect so why not just make everything legal....

I think the answer to your questions is in the nuances and some (possibly faulty) assumptions.

how is it legal to set up something like this before the season starts?

Collectives are independent entities, let's call them businesses for the sake of brevity, as that is, essentially, what most of them are. This is just a business saying what their plan is, a forward looking statement, if you will. They plan to raise enough money to be able to do X and Y for athletes that sign with them. They are hopeful that the athletes do sign a contract with them, but, there is nothing requiring the athletes to do so. I would say they are highly likely to do so, but, only if they agree to the requirements of the contract.

And how is it legal for coaching candidates to talk about NIL and what amount they need for the program? ...

how is it legal/ok for coaches to go public with their demands?

They are pretty much stating fact, not demanding, per se. If they are competing with other schools and the players at those schools have known NIL agreements totaling $1 Million, then the coach knows he needs $1 Million (give or take) in NIL agreements to be able to compete with that school.

Schools and coaches should be completely separate from any NIL deals... but its obvious that pay for play is in full effect so why not just make everything legal....

The athletes are not being paid by the school, and coaches can't contribute money to an NIL collective so it isn't pay for play. It is supposed to be separate (I think that is an NCAA requirement) and in most cases it is. I did see in the article that one of the schools was giving the equivalent of patriot club points related to NIL donations. Not sure how they are getting away with that other than they must be in one of the states that has passed a law that the NCAA has no jurisdiction. I see the leap your making that the player is only getting paid because he is playing basketball, but, the reason it isn't pay for play (or loophole if you want to call it that) is that they aren't being paid by the school. Additionally, the business derives value from an agreement with the athlete because he is playing for the team, most likely a local team. Doesn't make sense for a local business in VA to have an NIL deal with someone that plays in Washington state.

 

[bravesfan]

Collectives are independent entities, let's call them businesses for the sake of brevity, as that is, essentially, what most of them are. This is just a business saying what their plan is, a forward looking statement, if you will. They plan to raise enough money to be able to do X and Y for athletes that sign with them. They are hopeful that the athletes do sign a contract with them, but, there is nothing requiring the athletes to do so. I would say they are highly likely to do so, but, only if they agree to the requirements of the contract.

Someone needs to start sabotaging rivals.

Let's pay a vcu player enough money to do a signing at a Richmond McDonald's or something. And they are contracted to greet every person who shows up as, "Future burger flipper."

 

[gmujim92]

If they want to compete for 4 stars in Texas, they need to come to the table with a lot more than 36k a year. That's child's play.

LOL there are high school players in Texas making more than that

 

[JimP]

Syracuse has cut bait with sketchy (imo) billionaire Adam Weitsman. Guy was flying celebs like Jimmy Fallon in for courtside seats to games and making million dollar offers. He has since pledged to work on behalf of Binghamton University. Lol.

 

[jessej]

Led by Collectives, Year 3 of NIL To Reach $1.17B Market

In year two, three-quarters of the NIL market revenue derived from collective dollars, according to an Opendorse study.

frontofficesports.com

IF THIS IS TRUE - gives a look at average NIL payouts
I am skeptical of some of what I see posted - like players getting cars - Did a company give them a $75,000 Mercedes Benz or were they given a one-year lease? Those are 2 very different things.

 

[GMUgemini]

Guess those players aren't passing him the ball. Or they will give him the ball in his most unlikely to score spots and then not be options for him so he turns it over. And then the parents will get into a fight in the stands. Shit show. But we asked for it.

I don’t know if I’d trust an 18-20 year old with a lease. Might as well just give them the car and let them beat the hell out of it on their own dime.

 

[Falco]

I’m all for NIL. But schools are investing time and resources into NIL deals. All the big time schools have NIL directors. This is where Title 9 comes into question for me.

In theory, if a university employee helps secure a lucrative NIL agreement for a male athlete, it stands to reason that they should strive to secure a deal of equal value for female athletes. Is this happening?