Fire Dave Paulsen / Hire Tony Skinn

[GMUgemini]

But not every school is trying to hire a new coach in this environment at one of the lower points in their program’s history.

I wouldn't exactly call this a lower point in our entire history...maybe post-Larranaga era...

 

[gmubrian]

I wouldn't exactly call this a lower point in our entire history...maybe post-Larranaga era...

I was thinking about the wording of that and decided it is. You really can’t count the days pre-Larranaga before we had ever accomplished anything. It wasn’t like we were trying really hard for long prior to that. So that leaves the low of the Hewitt era and the end of the low of the Paulsen era as when we failed while actually trying. In some ways the Paulsen is worse because Hewitt was a retread and somewhat already tainted. And, You could ask how hard were we trying under Hewitt since it was under TOC as AD. Brad has made it clear we are trying and it is the front door...

 

[GMUgemini]

I was thinking about the wording of that and decided it is. You really can’t count the days pre-Larranaga before we had ever accomplished anything. It wasn’t like we were trying really hard for long prior to that. So that leaves the low of the Hewitt era and the end of the low of the Paulsen era as when we failed while actually trying. In some ways the Paulsen is worse because Hewitt was a retread and somewhat already tainted. And, You could ask how hard were we trying under Hewitt since it was under TOC as AD. Brad has made it clear we are trying and it is the front door...

Well, if they are trying now, it means we aren't lower than the end of the Hewitt-era, because when they fire Paulsen they can point to all of the things they've done that are trying to be competitive in the A-10. If Hewitt can recruit when we weren't trying, I imagine someone else should be able to come in here and recruit and if they can actually coach worth a damn, they should be able to succeed here.

 

[mkaufman1]

I like the optimism you both bring. I’ll play devil’s advocate on this. To do what you suggest requires an AD, and to some degree a president, that have their priorities straight when choosing and supporting the next coach. I have concerns that the timing right now couldn’t be worse for that. I don’t trust the AD and president to do that in more normal times, let alone the extremely woke times we are in. There are a couple things I have seen that give me pause on that front.

I fear that the Mason administration is so “woke” at present that the selection process and subsequent focus for a new coach will not prioritize success on the court (ignoring that could protect Paulsen’s job in the first place). I think the Mason coaching job comes with so much baggage at this point, you are at a handicap to succeed.

If I am a coach evaluating Mason as a possible head coaching position, I am only going to consider it if the reward significantly outweighs the risk (with the potential of destroying my future head coaching career). That means I would have to be a very low paid head coach at a very low program or a very low paid assistant that is very hungry. This person will have to be somewhat desperate and have the ability to overcome whatever handicaps Mason admin puts in the way (or the horrible bad luck we seem to have if that is what it is). I see the odds of getting a candidate that can successfully navigate the Mason situation being low.

That is what my gut tells me. I hope I am so out of touch with Mason that I am completely wrong.

It is a very valid point and a very valid concern.

However, I do think that unlike the previous regime, Brad is trying to win and even if hes cleared a very low bar and not gone beyond it, having this program get right is only going to benefit him.

Anyone who comes in is going to have challenges with a program like Mason being where it is, and in a league like the A10. However, based on Mason wanting to be in the A-10, and that I do believe Brad believes the men's program is the "front door" to the university, he has to get this right regardless of the environment. It isn't the best timing, but at the same rate, its not as if its game 5 either. There has been plenty of time to figure things out and right the ship.

As I said to folks in 2015, if they aren't going to take the A10 seriously, they didn't need to join. Since 2015 they have improved at least the bare minimum, so I do think someone could come in and win. No job is easy, this job won't be easy, but they at least have a few more things to work with to help them out.

Well, if they are trying now, it means we aren't lower than the end of the Hewitt-era, because when they fire Paulsen they can point to all of the things they've done that are trying to be competitive in the A-10. If Hewitt can recruit when we weren't trying, I imagine someone else should be able to come in here and recruit and if they can actually coach worth a damn, they should be able to succeed here.

Agreed- this points back to the new locker rooms and practice facility that Brad got in the last 5 years. I know they did it the "Mason way" and maybe the practice facility isn't as flashy as other schools. The key is that we have one, its being used, and its supposed to help the players get better and recruiting. As much as Dave has struggled with recruiting, someone who shines at it, can use it to their advantage. These are items that no other Mason coach has been able to use.

 

[Falco]

How can they justify retaining Paulsen. He’s accomplished nothing. Sure he runs a clean program. Don’t most coaches though?

 

[gmubrian]

Well, if they are trying now, it means we aren't lower than the end of the Hewitt-era, because when they fire Paulsen they can point to all of the things they've done that are trying to be competitive in the A-10. If Hewitt can recruit when we weren't trying, I imagine someone else should be able to come in here and recruit and if they can actually coach worth a damn, they should be able to succeed here.

I believe your argument, however unintended, means you subconsciously agree that this is one of our low points, especially if it ends as the trajectory currently suggests...

 

[GMUgemini]

I believe your argument, however unintended, means you subconsciously agree that this is one of our low points, especially if it ends as the trajectory currently suggests...

Post-Larranaga, yes. It probably started in 2018 with losing those first three games of the season and has continued into this one (yes, I know we went 11-7 in conference that year, but it was still a disappointment relative to what we could have done). Given 2018, 2019, and 2020 so far one has to conclude that Paulsen will not ever turn the corner here.

 

[Pablo]

If I am a coach evaluating Mason as a possible head coaching position, I am only going to consider it if the reward significantly outweighs the risk (with the potential of destroying my future head coaching career). That means I would have to be a very low paid head coach at a very low program or a very low paid assistant that is very hungry. This person will have to be somewhat desperate and have the ability to overcome whatever handicaps Mason admin puts in the way (or the horrible bad luck we seem to have if that is what it is). I see the odds of getting a candidate that can successfully navigate the Mason situation being low.

That is what my gut tells me. I hope I am so out of touch with Mason that I am completely wrong.

I disagree with you on this. I fully expect highly qualified candidates to apply for the Mason job when it's available, as was the case in 2015 when the top two candidates were successful mid-major coaches Paulsen and Russell Turner.

 

[Bricker]

I disagree with you on this. I fully expect highly qualified candidates to apply for the Mason job when it's available, as was the case in 2015 when the top two candidates were successful mid-major coaches Paulsen and Russell Turner.

sure, but RT didn't want the job (no matter how we twisted it here on the boards). Paulsen felt like a "meh" hire that some of grew to believe in at first. I don't recall anyone being super excited about it when it was announced.

I don't see Mason as a desirable job for any coach with marketable experience at this point. Gotta go young and unproven.

 

[Pablo]

sure, but RT didn't want the job (no matter how we twisted it here on the boards). Paulsen felt like a "meh" hire that some of grew to believe in at first. I don't recall anyone being super excited about it when it was announced.

I don't see Mason as a desirable job for any coach with marketable experience at this point. Gotta go young and unproven.

If Turner didn't want the job, then why did he apply and interview for the position (and, possibly, accepted it)?

Jeff Goodman @GoodmanESPN · 2h2 hours ago
Russell Turner is staying at UC Irvine, sources told ESPN. Was offered job at George Mason.


https://www.ocregister.com/2015/03/...ell-turner-turns-down-george-mason-job-offer/:

"Several news outlets reported that Turner was in talks with officials from the Virginia school, and a Washington Post reporter wrote Sunday on Twitter that an announcement could come Monday .

Turner, however, isn’t going anywhere. He opted to stay with the Anteaters instead of accepting a lucrative offer to take over for Paul Hewitt who was fired by George Mason after compiling a 66-67 record in his four seasons."

 

[GMUgemini]

sure, but RT didn't want the job (no matter how we twisted it here on the boards). Paulsen felt like a "meh" hire that some of grew to believe in at first. I don't recall anyone being super excited about it when it was announced.

I don't see Mason as a desirable job for any coach with marketable experience at this point. Gotta go young and unproven.

I really don't understand this: Keith Dambrot was at Akron for 13 seasons and took them 3 NCAA tournaments and 5 NITs in that time period and went to Duquense -- now he makes $1 million there, so it's pretty much about the money. Is Mason willing to shell out that kind of cash for a more proven coach? I don't know.

Both Neubauer and Pecora were pretty successful at Eastern Kentucky and Hofstra before tanking their careers at Fordham.

 

[mkaufman1]

I really don't understand this: Keith Dambrot was at Akron for 13 seasons and took them 3 NCAA tournaments and 5 NITs in that time period and went to Duquense -- now he makes $1 million there, so it's pretty much about the money. Is Mason willing to shell out that kind of cash for a more proven coach? I don't know.

Both Neubauer and Pecora were pretty successful at Eastern Kentucky and Hofstra before tanking their careers at Fordham.

I have to think if Dave made the NCAAs his contract would have been adjusted appropriately to be more in line with what A10 coaches make. They essentially put more incentives in his contract versus guaranteed pay.

There’s absolutely the ability to pay a coach market value for the A10. If Dave is 400 plus 300k incentives, I’m sure Mason would pay 5-6 hundred k with incentives to start at minimum. I think it’s just a matter of how much is base vs incentives.

 

[Pablo]

I have to think if Dave made the NCAAs his contract would have been adjusted appropriately to be more in line with what A10 coaches make. They essentially put more incentives in his contract versus guaranteed pay.

There’s absolutely the ability to pay a coach market value for the A10. If Dave is 400 plus 300k incentives, I’m sure Mason would pay 5-6 hundred k with incentives to start at minimum. I think it’s just a matter of how much is base vs incentives.

Most of the A10 schools are private, and do not release this information - https://www.midmajormadness.com/201...ch-contract-salary-database-mid-major-2019-20.

 

[mkaufman1]

Most of the A10 schools are private, and do not release this information - https://www.midmajormadness.com/201...ch-contract-salary-database-mid-major-2019-20.

well I feel like there’s enough information out there on peer programs both in league and not, that they can figure out what an appropriate contract is.

 

[GMUgemini]

Most of the A10 schools are private, and do not release this information - https://www.midmajormadness.com/201...ch-contract-salary-database-mid-major-2019-20.

Sometimes a newspaper article will turn up that has the information in it. For instance, here's the article I found that had Dambrot's "reported" salary: https://www.post-gazette.com/sports...-coach-salary-paul-zeise/stories/201703280136

 

[gmubrian]

If Turner didn't want the job, then why did he apply and interview for the position (and, possibly, accepted

If I recall correctly, Turner got a raise out of the exercise.

 

[Pablo]

If I recall correctly, Turner got a raise out of the exercise.

Yes, UC Irvine evidently didn't want to lose him to Mason (and his wife's job was likely a considerable factor) - https://www.mcall.com/tn-dpt-sp-0401-russell-turner-20150331-story.html:

"A weekend flirtation with George Mason has resulted in an agreement from the UC Irvine athletic department to raise men's basketball coach Russell Turner's salary and extend the length of his contract, UCI Athletic Director Mike Izzi and Turner confirmed on Tuesday."

"While Turner acknowledged that the commitment from UCI will mean more money for him and his assistant coaches, sources confirmed that Turner took considerably less money to stay than George Mason offered."

 

[JimP]

Was Paulsen hired with the help of a search firm? Couldn't recall.

After I attended game at Fordham last season, an understandably disgruntled Fordham fan approached me and asked if I liked Mason's coach. Guy was mumbling and grumbling so much it sounded to me like he was inquiring about my coat.

Anyway, I finally figured out he was saying "coach." He ranted (can't blame a Fordham fan for that) that Paulsen and Neubauer had been hired after Mason and Fordham used the same search firm and welp, things weren't working out for either school. Paulsen seems like a good dude, but it was tough to disagree with the ranting man.

 

[Pablo]

Was Paulsen hired with the help of a search firm? Couldn't recall.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...le-of-search-firms-in-college-coaching-hires/:

"When Edwards returned to Washington, he knew Bucknell Coach Dave Paulsen was his man, most of the broad strokes – expectations, requests, terms of a five-year contract – already agreed to in Atlanta. Confidence, though, costs money: in this case $50,000 paid to Parker Executive Search, one of the most influential players in the high-stakes and mysterious world of coaching search firms."

 

[Bricker]

If Turner didn't want the job, then why did he apply and interview for the position (and, possibly, accepted it)?

He might have initially wanted it -- or just used it as a negotiation tool. Maybe he decided he couldn't make hay in Fairfax (my guess). Remember Dave even saying early on that he wouldn't have accepted the job in the first place if he had known the abysmal shape of the program beforehand.