Recruiting, Moneyball-style

gmujim92

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GIVING DAY 2023
In the interest of sparking discussion about something other than the awful, un-killable Scalia thread, I thought I'd share an interesting trend in our MBB recruiting.

For programs of Mason's current stature, recruiting often is about being able to find undervalued talent and secure it before higher-profile schools start sniffing around.

That got me thinking about the book Moneyball and how Michael Lewis explained the concept as basically exploiting the inefficiencies in any system.

I think our staff has spotted one: the public high school system.

It sounds somewhat counterintuitive because the vast majority of American children will graduate from a public school, but in terms of basketball recruiting, public schools in many cases have become undervalued as sources of major D-I talent.

The perception these days is if you're an elite talent, you need to go play for a private school and a shoe company-sponsored AAU program because the competition is so much better.

While that may be true overall, that stereotype has placed a premium on those players. There are so many coaches recruiting those kids, and so many websites tracking the recruiting activity, it has become basically impossible to find under-the-radar prospects who are good enough to play on our level and would be appreciative to get an offer from a school like Mason.

Consider a kid like Otis Livingston. If he had played at Roselle Catholic with Isaiah Briscoe, he would've been seen by hundreds of the same coaches who flocked to New Jersey to recruit Briscoe.

No way Otis stays under the radar in that scenario; chances are a bottom-tier P5 school (say Rutgers) likes him enough to offer and he's gone before our staff even has a chance.

Instead, he's all-state at Linden HS and his offers are so weak, he's seriously thinking about taking a prep year before Mason swoops in and signs him late in his senior year.

Consider that, in DP's first two recruiting classes, he has signed the following kids from public high schools: Livingston, Abram, Boyd, Newman, Kier and Temara.

Grayer, Dixon and Murrell were all public school kids, too, before spending 1 year apiece at IMG.

What do all of these kids have in common: None of them had what I'd consider better than "meh" offers.

Now we obviously don't know how they're gonna pan out. It's still early in the process. Maybe like Billy Beane's Oakland teams, we won't wind up winning anything more than a couple division (in our case, conference) titles.

But I think there is a lesson to be learned from what happened with our recruiting during the Larranaga years. We went to the Final 4 with a bunch of kids nobody wanted, then that helped us get in the door with higher-rated kids who previously never would've given us the time of day.

Only, some of those higher-rated kids turned out to not actually be better basketball players than what our staff was already recruiting.

Our current staff is in with some very good local private school kids in the 2017 class -- kids like Eddie Scott from Gonzaga who plays with a high-profile AAU program and thus now has offers from Dayton and URI, among others.

If we can sign a kid like that, great. But we are also recruiting some very talented public school kids in the 2017 class who might turn out to be even better in college.

Hopefully the staff doesn't stop mining that undervalued territory once we're back winning and going to the dance on a regular basis.
 
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Patriotsince81

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Local kids from public high schools of note...... Hubert Davis (Lake Braddock) & Grant Hill (South Lakes) come to mind immediately.
 

Herndon

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Also, I think it's a LITTLE presumptuous to say that a worst case scenario is a couple of conference titles.
 
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gmujim92

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GIVING DAY 2023
Also, I think it's a LITTLE presumptuous to say that a worst case scenario is a couple of conference titles.

The biggest challenge is going to be keeping this staff together once they really get this train rolling.

Our coaches are excellent talent evaluators and even better teachers of the game.

Now we have an administration committed to helping them build a first-class program in all respects.

They will win big. Book it.
 

Vurbel

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The biggest challenge is going to be keeping this staff together once they really get this train rolling.

Our coaches are excellent talent evaluators and even better teachers of the game.

Now we have an administration committed to helping them build a first-class program in all respects.

They will win big. Book it.

You mean WE will win big! :)
 

Walter

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Not meaning to sidetrack this great discussion, but Harvard has four ESPN Top 100 players. All 4 star recruits. How did that happen?

Back to moneyball recruiting. I think the recruiting services are led by a herd mentality. But the law of averages is that a Top 100 player is going to pan out more times than an under the radar player. Too many under-the-radar players who don't pan out will likely lead to a very bad program. If you are Radford then you don't waste your time trying to recruit a Top 200 player. If you are a team in the A10 who wants to compete for championships then you have to balance under the radar players with a few four star recruits.

But honestly, what do I know about recruiting? I have no stats to back up my assertion.

Maybe we should target the under recruited tranny players. :chuckle:
 
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gmujim92

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GIVING DAY 2023
Not meaning to sidetrack this great discussion, but Harvard has four ESPN Top 100 players. All 4 star recruits. How did that happen?

Back to moneyball recruiting. I think the recruiting services are led by a herd mentality. But the law of averages is that a Top 100 player is going to pan out more times than an under the radar player. Too many under-the-radar players who don't pan out will likely lead to a very bad program. If you are Radford then you don't waste your time trying to recruit a Top 200 player. If you are a team in the A10 who wants to compete for championships then you have to balance under the radar players with a few four star recruits.

But honestly, what do I know about recruiting? I have no stats to back up my assertion.

Walter, I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually took the time a couple years back to evaluate the ESPN100 and how many of them fared in college in relation to their recruiting stars.

Yes, I'm occasionally that kind of nerd.

Anyhow, I don't know where I put the document, but I do remember being surprised that there were so many highly regarded players who turned out to be busts.

Recruiting analysts are excellent at projecting the top 25 players. Most of the top 50 turn out to be at least serviceable. Beyond that it's mostly a crapshoot.

That was kind of my point. Because of the "herd mentality" and the way recruiting services function, certain guys get hyped up beyond their actual ability and other talented kids are all but ignored.

If you go to the "right" school or play for the "right" AAU program, you'll probably get listed in the ESPN100 and offered by P5 schools whether or not you're actually any good.

There are so many examples of guys who got no love at all from major programs -- Curry and Lillard, to name just two -- but turned out to be excellent college players before starring in the NBA.

To find them, you just have to be smart, creative and willing to do more than just sit courtside at the same AAU tournaments as all the other "big time" coaches.
 

mkaufman1

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Interesting topic. I wonder if (and I'm trying to find equivalency here) if on base percentage in Moneyball is the same as valuing "3 point shooting or shooters in general" to a degree. Paulsen obviously values shooters which can get you back in the game and get you points in a hurry. Similar thought process seems to apply to "can't score if you dont' get on base"
 
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gmujim92

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Interesting topic. I wonder if (and I'm trying to find equivalency here) if on base percentage in Moneyball is the same as valuing "3 point shooting or shooters in general" to a degree. Paulsen obviously values shooters which can get you back in the game and get you points in a hurry. Similar thought process seems to apply to "can't score if you dont' get on base"

As described by Lewis, Moneyball is designed to identify and exploit areas of inefficiency in a system.

Most coaches at P5 schools have boxed themselves into recruiting only guys who have certain physical characteristics -- height, arm length, leaping ability, etc. If you aren't athletic enough, these guys won't talk to you (no matter your skill level) because they assume you couldn't possibly keep up with guys who are bigger, stronger and faster.

Luckily for schools like Mason, that creates an enormous inefficiency in the system -- in the form of kids who have all the requisite skill to be a D-I player, but fall through the cracks because of their physical attributes.

If Ian Boyd was 3 inches taller, he would've had all kinds of P5 coaches fawning over him. The kid is a freak. But he did a lot of damage in the paint in HS, and at 6-3/6-4, there's no way an ACC coach is gonna sign him to play the SF spot. His team's fans demand the 6-8 high flyer. If he wants to stay employed, at least in theory, that's who he will recruit.

Hewitt failed at Mason because he's a terrible coach, but also because his approach was flawed; he tried to recruit like a P5 program and load up on long athletes who looked better walking through an airport than on a basketball court.

Now we have a staff that is recruiting kids who can pass, shoot and dribble. Truly a novel concept, but one that has been proven to work.
 

GMUSig03

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Yes, I'm occasionally that kind of nerd.

Jim, we all appreciate your recruiting nerdiness, thank you!

I think it's not necessarily deciding whether to target the 4 stars or to go after the diamonds in the rough. I think the rub lies in the ABILITY to recognize talent, and recruit it. Both are necessary, and I think it is clearly what Coach L and his staffs excelled in. At Miami they are no longer going for the under the radar kids, but they are still recognizing talent (just 4 and 5 star talent now) AND recruiting it.

So far the small sample size for this staff gives us no reason to doubt they have that ability as well.
 

KAOriginal

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I still say.....just beyond athleticism....is HOOPS IQ.

Our FF team...while being just a step behind, just a few inches shorter, just a few pounds lighter than the higher recruits....none of those kids ever struck me as dumb when it came to basketball.

Not saying a bunch of mini coaches can get you anything.....but it almost seems, once you get out of the say Top 50-100 crapshoot, might a different measure come into effect in recruiting and building a team?

Maybe it happens and I am just too many cocktails in the wind.....
 

GMUgemini

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I think what hasn't been said yet in this forum (but has been discussed a lot in articles) is how public high school coaches are more apt to focus on a player's fundamentals whereas there isn't much actual coaching going on on the AAU circuit.

KA, absolutely understanding how to read the game will overcome a lot of athletic shortcomings -- that and meshing as a team (when all five players on the court can play as one mind it's a beautiful thing).
 
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gmujim92

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I still say.....just beyond athleticism....is HOOPS IQ.

Our FF team...while being just a step behind, just a few inches shorter, just a few pounds lighter than the higher recruits....none of those kids ever struck me as dumb when it came to basketball.

Not saying a bunch of mini coaches can get you anything.....but it almost seems, once you get out of the say Top 50-100 crapshoot, might a different measure come into effect in recruiting and building a team?

Maybe it happens and I am just too many cocktails in the wind.....

You're spot on.

DP is way too demanding a coach to have guys who lack the requisite understanding of the game and ability to grasp what he's trying to teach them.

Likely one of the reasons why the staff has signed so many guys who were captains of their HS teams. Not only are they talented, they're accustomed to serving as coaches on the floor.
 

Herndon

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I think what hasn't been said yet in this forum (but has been discussed a lot in articles) is how public high school coaches are more apt to focus on a player's fundamentals whereas there isn't much actual coaching going on on the AAU circuit.

KA, absolutely understanding how to read the game will overcome a lot of athletic shortcomings -- that and meshing as a team (when all five players on the court can play as one mind it's a beautiful thing).

Remembering Will Thomas busting everybody's a** with post moves straight out of the George Mikan playbook, I buy it.
 

GSII

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Ya gotta wonder, if the NBA played defense they way its supposed to be played (Magic, Bird, Jordan era), how many of these one and done's would make it.
 

Herndon

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Ya gotta wonder, if the NBA played defense they way its supposed to be played (Magic, Bird, Jordan era), how many of these one and done's would make it.
You know, I have to disagree.

Go back and watch a game from the early to mid 80's. They played soft, awful defense. Defense as a league didn't really toughen up until the late 80's/early 90's.
 

Vurbel

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You know, I have to disagree.

Go back and watch a game from the early to mid 80's. They played soft, awful defense. Defense as a league didn't really toughen up until the late 80's/early 90's.

The first two that come to mind are the Pistons and Knicks with Harper.
 
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