OT: The Last Dance

[Quentin Daniels]

Anyone else watched the Jordan/Bulls Last Dance documentary series?

So good and fully convinced MJ is the GOAT but also comes across as a kind of a jerk in it. I have to wonder how successful he'd be in the era of "super teams" to win and needing to massage egos, as well as social media, sports bloggers, and chasing clicks.

 

[gmutom]

I loved the documentary and actually found myself looking forward to it every Sunday night. I watched every single playoff game they showed in the series, but the behind-the-scenes footage and interviews made me feel like I was watching many of those games for the first time.

I agree MJ did come across at times like a tyrant and bully, but part of me wonders if the Bulls would have won six titles if he hadn't pushed himself and others like he did. A great example was Scottie Pippen playing in a title-clinching game 6 against Utah with the back injury. Was the bar set so high by Michael that Pippen was able to harness a next level of commitment? Would Scott Burrell ever have become the player he was if MJ hadn't ridden his a** constantly.

I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, because I think even he was surprised by how he was perceived by his "peers." One of the most candid moments of the entire series was when Michael broke down while watching an interview of somebody calling him out for how he treated his teammates. Moments like that are what made this such a riveting documentary.

 

[sleeperpick]

I loved the documentary and actually found myself looking forward to it every Sunday night. I watched every single playoff game they showed in the series, but the behind-the-scenes footage and interviews made me feel like I was watching many of those games for the first time.

I agree MJ did come across at times like a tyrant and bully, but part of me wonders if the Bulls would have won six titles if he hadn't pushed himself and others like he did. A great example was Scottie Pippen playing in game 7 against Utah with the back injury. Was the bar set so high by Michael that Pippen was able to harness a next level of commitment? Would Scott Burrell ever have become the player he was if MJ hadn't ridden his a** constantly.

I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, because I think even he was surprised by how he was perceived by his "peers." One of the most candid moments of the entire series was when Michael broke down while watching an interview of somebody calling him out for how he treated his teammates. Moments like that are what made this such a riveting documentary.

agreed completely...

I also like the fact that Michael was hated by his opponents. The best friends forever NBA that we watch today just isn't the same. Less banana boat trips with opponents and more cussing them out on and off the court is fine with me.

 

[FreeGunston12]

The thing that stood out to me was how much adversity the bulls faced and dealt with behind the scenes. As a little kid, I hated the bulls because they won all the time and knocked out my preferred teams. I did not see them as the ones that were persevering through so much adversity.

Watching more detail about the death of Jordan's father, Kerr's father, Jordan's trusted security guard who became like a father, Rodman's Vegas trip, the tension between Phil and Jerry, the loss to the Pistons, etc has given me such a different perspective on the 90's bulls.

 

[Quentin Daniels]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/05/18/john-stockton-deserved-better-last-dance/:
But the project would have benefited greatly from a more thorough treatment of John Stockton, a Hall of Famer who embodied Jordan’s signature drive as well as any player from that era.

I don't know that I agree with that. The documentary was "Last Dance," about the breakup of a dynasty that won three championships in a row twice. As great as Stockton was, he was the the second best player on a team that never won it once.

That said, I remember reading a story about Stockton crushing Steve Kerr on a Gonzaga recruiting trip and causing him to not get an offer.


That's when the trip took a downturn.

Kerr found himself matched against a frail-looking white guy who had no tan, sunken cheeks, was two inches shorter than he was, and in general looked as dangerous as Wally Cleaver.

But then they started to play.

"He kicked my butt," said Kerr, the memory obviously as keen today as it was the day it happened 14 springs ago.

"He worked me over, up and down the court. He was quicker, he was faster. He was nice about it, but he kicked my butt . . . This guy nobody'd ever heard of. I was devastated."

As were the Gonzaga coaches.

They didn't even bother to wait until Kerr flew back to Los Angeles to give him their decision.

"They said thanks but no thanks," said Kerr. "They wouldn't be needing my services.

https://www.deseret.com/1997/6/4/19315732/a-day-in-gonzaga-with-stockton-good-bad-for-kerr

 

[Quentin Daniels]

I also like the fact that Michael was hated by his opponents. The best friends forever NBA that we watch today just isn't the same. Less banana boat trips with opponents and more cussing them out on and off the court is fine with me.

That was one thing that stood out for me as making him a lot less likable, the pettiness still there years later against Isaiah Thomas and even Charles Barkley.

Sidenote - also reminded me how ridiculously hot Carmen Electra was back in the day.

 

[sleeperpick]

That was one thing that stood out for me as making him a lot less likable, the pettiness still there years later against Isaiah Thomas and even Charles Barkley.

Sidenote - also reminded me how ridiculously hot Carmen Electra was back in the day.

back in the day? she is a still a fox lol

 

[mkaufman1]

Loved the series. Was like reliving my childhood as an adult. I hated Michael as a kid but I now appreciate how good he was. He killed my Knicks back in the day but he just didn’t know how to lose.

 

[GSII]

MJ was all confidence, all the time. Today we have a bunch insecure pussies that want to transfer to other schools or build super teams in the nba. MJ would have never asked Magic or Larry to join him. He wanted to squash them. The mentality is different today. These guys today play the business. Not the game.

 

[Quentin Daniels]

MJ was all confidence, all the time. Today we have a bunch insecure pussies that want to transfer to other schools or build super teams in the nba. MJ would have never asked Magic or Larry to join him. He wanted to squash them. The mentality is different today. These guys today play the business. Not the game.

I don't know man, he was all about winning first. If he had to go up against a super team like James' Heat/Cavaliers/Lakers or Curry's Warriors, I can't see him not bringing in someone to help him win. Part of the episodes were about accepting the concept of the triangle because it helped him win, even thought it took the ball out of his hands more.

Also, they brought in Rodman right after the playoff exit to the Magic in his comeback year.

 

[GSII]

I don't know man, he was all about winning first. If he had to go up against a super team like James' Heat/Cavaliers/Lakers or Curry's Warriors, I can't see him not bringing in someone to help him win. Part of the episodes were about accepting the concept of the triangle because it helped him win, even thought it took the ball out of his hands more.

Also, they brought in Rodman right after the playoff exit to the Magic in his comeback year.

I think he faced some pretty comparable competition throughout. Celtics had like 5 hall of famers on its team. The Piston's would intimidate every team you mentioned. Lebron, Splash brothers, Carmelo would shit on themselves if they faced those Pistons. Yes they brought in Rodman but he wasn't a super star. Wasn't he sleeping in his pick up truck with a shot gun? MJ made people great. He didn't seek out someone who was a star to team up with. Wasn't his style b/c he wasn't a pussy.

 

[Quentin Daniels]

I think he faced some pretty comparable competition throughout. Celtics had like 5 hall of famers on its team. The Piston's would intimidate every team you mentioned. Lebron, Splash brothers, Carmelo would shit on themselves if they faced those Pistons. Yes they brought in Rodman but he wasn't a super star. Wasn't he sleeping in his pick up truck with a shot gun? MJ made people great. He didn't seek out someone who was a star to team up with. Wasn't his style b/c he wasn't a pussy.

Well, these are two different questions; Did He? & Would he?

First, no player brings in anyone. They can demand and hold a franchise for ransom, but ultimately, it's the team that signs the contract and is on the hook for the salary. And that's not just semantics and playing gotcha, it's important to consider because in 97-98, the NBA salary cap was about $27 million, with Jordan making $33 million because teams were allowed to sign their own players in excess of the cap and pay a luxury tax. So att the time, it wasn't a structure that was feasible to build the super-teams like you have now. So no, the Bulls didn't really bring in other top 10 players still in their prime but really weren't able to.

So the other question is, would he? I think the Jordan who played w/food poisoning, has held lifetime grudges, bullied teammates mercilessly to win, wouldn't have stuck up his nose at free agency if that's what it took - they traded his best friend on the team Charles Oakley to try and win and signed Kukoc against the wished of Jordan and Pippen. Also, the Rodman thing again. To say he wasn't a star, in 95 he was still a first team all Defensive Team, All-NBA third team, and in his 4th year of leading the league in rebounds.

 

[GSII]

Well, these are two different questions; Did He? & Would he?

First, no player brings in anyone.

I stopped after that. You are dis-credited.

 

[gmutom]

Horace Grant offers some interesting insight on the documentary.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...el-jordan-liar-says-last-dance-was-mostly-bs/

 

[GSII]

Horace Grant offers some interesting insight on the documentary.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...el-jordan-liar-says-last-dance-was-mostly-bs/

Grant didn't need MJ to push him like some other admittedly did. But for him to call it bs is haterish

 

[KAOriginal]

Oh this about Jordan. I thought we were discussing a title for the documentary on how Mason failed to capitalize on 2006.....