A10 Versus CAA

[gmubrian]

I finally got a brief break in my proposal hell of the last several months and I am trying to get my fill of Mason Basketball since I have missed much of the season to date. I am now all caught up with nothing more to discuss. :-(. Now to the real topic.

In other threads for a while now, the theory that we are getting exactly what we have paid for has been bandied around, and I can't say I totally disagree with it, and unfortunately, am coming closer to that point of view. People have also bandied about the topic of going back to the CAA. I used to laugh at the mere suggestion of that. The whole getting what we paid for theory, though, has me toying with that idea (for the sake of a theoretical topic). If I thought Mason wouldn't invest more in basketball with the move to the A10 and we would be mired in the middle for the foreseeable future, I don't know that I would have supported the move to the A10. So my topic for discussion is this:

We will stipulate (whether you actually agree with it or not) for the sake of this discussion the following:
Mason is spending on basketball all it will ever spend, at least on a relative basis to other A10 schools.
You get exactly what you pay for in your spending on a program a coach, facilities, etc..
Because of this, we are doomed to be a middle of the pack team in the A10 as long as we are in it.
Final stipulation, we get to the NCAA tournament once every 10-12 years or so.

A ground rule I hope people will abide by: This thread isn't about wether Paulsen is a good coach or not. We have plenty of those threads already.

Given the above would you prefer to be the top tier of the CAA like we were before, the proverbial big fish in a little pond, or remain in the A10, be a medium fish in a big lake that gets pushed around by the big fish, but we routinely push around the little fish in the lake.?

 

[Five Two]

I'll play.

Given everything you outlined above, I'll take the big fish in a small pond.

Vermont looks like a good example of a school that probably could move up, but stays put in the America East and is at the top of the league year after year.

 

[mkaufman1]

I’m a A10 guy. Even if mason is stuck in the middle of the league most of the time, with the occasional NCAA, I’d rather them play talented teams across the conference with opportunities to play the likes of Dayton and vcu, versus be stuck in an all or nothing.

 

[Mason32]

A-10 in DC metro area with a Coach who can actually recruit is way more value able then fighting for a #13 seed every year. Just need the right coach

 

[gmubrian]

A-10 in DC metro area with a Coach who can actually recruit is way more value able then fighting for a #13 seed every year. Just need the right coach

I rule that is not abiding by the stipulations. According to the stipulations, we aren’t ever going to spend the money to get the right coach. We are stuck with a coach with Paulsen’s skills.

 

[Pablo]

http://www.davidsonian.com/the-davidson-model-in-the-atlantic-10-conference/:

"Front Porch Renovations

Let’s back up. The A-10 move really started at Georgia Tech, where Jim Murphy, Davidson’s athletic director, and Bernadette McGlade, the A-10 commissioner, worked together for ten years before moving on to their current postings. The two stayed in touch and McGlade would often ask Murphy if he would be willing to have a conversation about moving to the A-10.

Every time the presidents meet, McGlade said, they all thought Davidson would be a good fit.

Two other things were happening around that time. One, we were having some consistent success on the basketball court. The men’s basketball team won the Southern Conference (SoCon) regular season six out of the previous eight years before the A-10 move. The other was that the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA) conference asked if we would be willing to join them.

The first meant that Davidson had, in at least our biggest sport, outgrown the SoCon. The second clarified our priorities. Moving to the CAA, which includes teams like UNC-Wilmington and William and Mary, would be a step up in competition, but it would still keep Davidson mostly in the South. Plus, of the schools that were outside the South, only Drexel and Northeastern were in big cities.

If we were going to do this, Murphy said, we were going to use a move to raise our national profile and move into markets where we didn’t already have a presence. So he and the athletic department turned down the CAA. About a year later, Davidson announced it would be moving into the A-10.

This history is important because it shows why Davidson made the move. It wasn’t just so our athletes could test themselves against tougher competition. We wanted to use athletics to spread Davidson’s footprint out of the South. As one Davidson coach said, 'If a college is a house, athletics are the front porch. For better or worse, it’s often the first thing people see.' By moving to the A-10, we made our front porch much larger."

 

[gmujim92]

As one Davidson coach said, 'If a college is a house, athletics are the front porch. For better or worse, it’s often the first thing people see.' By moving to the A-10, we made our front porch much larger."

Tom O’Connor says “Bah humbug.”

 

[GMUgemini]

I’m all in on the A10. The few glory years of the CAA are gone, and I'm not sure I want to be in a conference with the NE4+JMU, W&M, UNCW, Charleston, and Elon enough to ditch where we are right now.

I'd also like to say that nothing is permanent, and so I can't 100% buy your conditions based on their immutability.

 

[Falco]

CAA-
If I were a recruit I would go to the school that gives me the best chance to dance. If Mason stayed in the CAA they would have won the conference tourney at least once by now.

I understand the A10 is a better conference. But it’s not that great. I rather just win.

 

[Walter]

I only miss playing JMU twice a year. I really don't care about any of the other CAA teams.

Give me vcu, GW, UR, Davidson, UMass, UD and URI.

 

[FreeGunston12]

A-10

We raised our ceiling with the move. Maybe it wasn't the best timing, but our potential is so much higher.

Forever is a long time. You can't make stipulations that we'll never increase spending.

What happens if we hit big on a future hire or a couple recruits? Maybe we can capitalize on it next time. And we're by far in a better position to do that in the A-10.

 

[Mason32]

CAA-
If I were a recruit I would go to the school that gives me the best chance to dance. If Mason stayed in the CAA they would have won the conference tourney at least once by now.

I understand the A10 is a better conference. But it’s not that great. I rather just win.

so you were a big fan of Hewitt’s first year here I guess. Have your BS wins, I want an actual competitive team winning against quality.

 

[gmubrian]

Man some of you really don't (cough, cough, FreeGunston, Gemini, Mason32, cough) understand how to play a game by the stated rules (I hear the Astros are hiring...). The stipulations weren't' meant to represent reality. It is theoretical based on extrapolating Maon's history of being a little lean on head coach salary and the theory that you get exactly what you pay for in coaching. For the sake of the game, yes things are permanent and there is no higher potential.

Given the scenario, I'd go with CAA. We'd be the big fish in the small pond. We'd win the championship on a regular basis. We would beat-up on everyone else in the league. I'd guess we'd be in the tournament once every 3 years, maybe more often. We would be the Gonzaga of the east to steal a phrase. There would be some real rivalries (well, at least one). Showing up in the tournament on a regular basis, in my opinion, would be much better than showing up once in a generation and then being an afterthought.

 

[GSII]

Is the annual 400k in A10 TV money that each school gets part of the stipulation? B/c hardly any CAA school is getting the TV exposure A10 provides. Probably why we joined. 400k each year is a lot for Mason.

 

[Falco]

Is the annual 400k in A10 TV money that each school gets part of the stipulation? B/c hardly any CAA school is getting the TV exposure A10 provides. Probably why we joined. 400k each year is a lot for Mason.

I rather not be on TV. I could cut the cord and stick with ESPN +. Half joking.

 

[Herndon]

Man some of you really don't (cough, cough, FreeGunston, Gemini, Mason32, cough) understand how to play a game by the stated rules (I hear the Astros are hiring...). The stipulations weren't' meant to represent reality. It is theoretical based on extrapolating Maon's history of being a little lean on head coach salary and the theory that you get exactly what you pay for in coaching. For the sake of the game, yes things are permanent and there is no higher potential.

Given the scenario, I'd go with CAA. We'd be the big fish in the small pond. We'd win the championship on a regular basis. We would beat-up on everyone else in the league. I'd guess we'd be in the tournament once every 3 years, maybe more often. We would be the Gonzaga of the east to steal a phrase. There would be some real rivalries (well, at least one). Showing up in the tournament on a regular basis, in my opinion, would be much better than showing up once in a generation and then being an afterthought.

I understand the game, but I also subscribe to the "rising tide floats all ships" model.

We weren't always going to have Larranaga, and all the years before larranaga give us no reason to believe we would have hired the next larranaga.

odds are we would have hired an average CAA coach, and become an average CAA program.

I'd rather be an average A10 program than an average CAA program.

In the CAA as it is currently constructed, if you have a really good year but don't win the conference tournament, you're not going to the big dance. In the a-10, most years winning the regular-season title is an at-large bid.

We have already risen to the level of the a-10 conference. We are a rock solid average A10 program. It has taken us a few years, but we have gotten there. if things break for us right now, our ceiling is much higher than if they had broken right for us in the CAA, and if they break wrong for us, our floor is much higher than if they had broken wrong for us in the CAA.

 

[Falco]

so you were a big fan of Hewitt’s first year here I guess. Have your BS wins, I want an actual competitive team winning against quality.

I wasn’t a fan of the Hewitt’s first year. He should have won the CAA.

I want to win against quality as well. That’s why I want my team dancing. Mason seems stuck in A10 purgatory. But they had/have the ability to compete at the top of the CAA and advance to the NCAA more consistently.

It seems as if Mason needs to catch lightning in a bottle to ever advance to the NCCA tournament in the A10. Dayton, vcu are just so far ahead of us. But it’s reasonable to win the CAA once every 3 years.

 

[Mason32]

But it’s reasonable to win the CAA once every 3 years.

Maybe you should root for Elon then? I think that's more your speed

 

[Mason32]

Man some of you really don't (cough, cough, FreeGunston, Gemini, Mason32, cough) understand how to play a game by the stated rules (I hear the Astros are hiring...). The stipulations weren't' meant to represent reality. It is theoretical based on extrapolating Maon's history of being a little lean on head coach salary and the theory that you get exactly what you pay for in coaching. For the sake of the game, yes things are permanent and there is no higher potential.

Given the scenario, I'd go with CAA. We'd be the big fish in the small pond. We'd win the championship on a regular basis. We would beat-up on everyone else in the league. I'd guess we'd be in the tournament once every 3 years, maybe more often. We would be the Gonzaga of the east to steal a phrase. There would be some real rivalries (well, at least one). Showing up in the tournament on a regular basis, in my opinion, would be much better than showing up once in a generation and then being an afterthought.

Mid-major conferences beat up on each other, Mason never dominated the CAA anyway. At least if you come out alive in the A-10 you're a damn good team and ready to beat NCAA tournament squads. CAA champs earn the right to be blasted by a 3 seed? No way in hell they'd ever earn a #8 seed again being the current CAA.

 

[99 Patriot]

A-10 by far. CAA we generally won when we had strong seniors (99-Miskiri, 01-Evans/Herring/Price, 06-Butler/Skinn/Lewis, 08-Thomas/Campbell, 11-Long/Tate with a great junior class as well). For a variety of reasons we haven't had more than one senior on the floor since 2017. Starting next year it appears we'll start having some balanced classes year over year with senior leaders each season. Let's see if our ceiling adjusts with a more seasoned group.